Can an atheist get into Heaven

[jaybird18c 24]

"A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor) . . . . It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required."

"There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this."

"There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter."

- Dr. Werner Gitt

[jaybird18c 24]

Excellent book!
"Not by Chance!"
- Dr. Lee Spetner

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1880582244/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1523226006&sr=8-2&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=not+by+chance&dpPl=1&dpID=51f-fk6rkPL&ref=plSrch

[billvon 2,990]

>There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither
>is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this.

He must not know many natural laws or physical processes.

Crystallization generates ordered structures from disordered solutions through simple physical mechanisms.

Random number generators generate information where there was none before.

Orbital mechanics results in predictable, ordered paths given random initial conditions.

>There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events
>which can cause information to originate by itself in matter

I guess he's never seen a hexagonal crystalline system, expressing space P6(2)22 and P6(4)22 structures, arising by itself from disordered matter. (You may have seen them - they are called quartz crystals.)

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

jaybird18c

"A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor) . . . . It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required."

"There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this."

"There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter."

- Dr. Werner Gitt

So simply because there is no known way for it to happen means that there isn't a way for it to happen?

One that we don't yet know about?

So we, as humans know everything?

As I said on the last page, this is simply the "God of the Gaps."

It's been done before, and proven wrong. One of the more recent one is the eye. How could an eye spontaneously evolve into being? It can't, so God must have made it happen (which is crap, by the way).

As was also noted:

billvon

Ah, so you are going with the classic "argument from ignorance" - "We don't know X, therefore God did it!"

Unfortunately, it's been used (and rejected) so many times now that it really doesn't work any more. To wit:

"We don't know how lightning is created, so it must be Zeus throwing his spear."
"We don't know how the Earth is suspended in space, so it must be turtles all the way down."
"We don't know how the Earth was created, so God must have made it out of water."
"We don't know how gravity works, so the Earth must be flat."
"We don't know how rockets work, so sending a rocket to the moon must be impossible."
"We don't know how evolution or heredity works, so God must do it."

After a few centuries of that sort of argument it starts to lose its persuasiveness.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[JoeWeber 2,720]

wmw999

As a lifelong agnostic Christian, I’d have to say “it’s up to God,” and just leave it at that. Because, well, if there is a God, who’s to say that they’re as we imagine? It’s like asking your cat if Johnny will get into Harvard.

So I voted boobies.

Wendy P.

Were you an agnostic atheist would you still vote boobies? If cats had no opinion on religion or Harvard would you care?

Please be gentle with me as you are one of the few people, outside of Billvon occasionally, whose opinions I respect here.

[jakee 1,489]

jaybird18c

"A code system is always the result of a mental process (it requires an intelligent origin or inventor) . . . . It should be emphasized that matter as such is unable to generate any code. All experiences indicate that a thinking being voluntarily exercising his own free will, cognition, and creativity, is required."

"There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this."

"There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events which can cause information to originate by itself in matter."

- Dr. Werner Gitt

Problem is, he's just made that all up. Everything you just quoted is simply wrong. Totally wrong.

Besdes, his own logic precludes the ability of God to exist since a thinking being requires information, and there's nowhere for that information to come from.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wmw999 2,439]

Were I an agnostic atheist I’d almost certainly vote “boobies,” because they’re verifiable.

I’m married to a denying atheist (“there is no god” as opposed to “there is no evidence for god”), so the topics of both god and boobies have been explored. And the cats mostly care about breakfast and dinner

I was raised in a liberal Christian household (one of those feel-good families that emphasized love, charity, and acceptance), so culturally that makes sense, and it was nice.

I’ve been in a congregation that satisfied me hugely both socially and spiritually; my life was fuller, in spiritually meaningful ways, than it is now. I can’t describe it exactly, but it was a feeling of community, joining, and otherness that was enriching. That it was in large part human was made clear when the congregation broke up for very human reasons; subsequent looking didn’t find anything that approached this community. Of course, I might not have invested enough time in the “right” congregation, but I couldn’t tell the difference between that and too much time in the wrong one. Oh well. But I’m still in touch with several people from that group, even though we have basically nothing else in common.

I think this area is deeply personal, and one can only show what one has, and share if requested. Because of all that “who knows what it looks like” stuff at the top.

And thanks.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[winsor 236]

billvon

>There is no known natural law through which matter can give rise to information, neither
>is any physical process or material phenomenon known that can do this.

He must not know many natural laws or physical processes.

Crystallization generates ordered structures from disordered solutions through simple physical mechanisms.

Random number generators generate information where there was none before.

Orbital mechanics results in predictable, ordered paths given random initial conditions.

>There is no known law of nature, no known process and no known sequence of events
>which can cause information to originate by itself in matter

I guess he's never seen a hexagonal crystalline system, expressing space P6(2)22 and P6(4)22 structures, arising by itself from disordered matter. (You may have seen them - they are called quartz crystals.)

Check out zeolite crystallization. You go straight from soup to elegant complexity, orders of magnitude more so than quartz.

Zeolites, aluminosilicate clays, catalyze the formation of nucleic acids. It is ironic that my Bronze Age forebears, stuck in your basic stinking desert, made the connection between clay and the foundations of life.

Of course, this level of technology is sophisticated enough to be indistinguishable from magic.

As you were.

[jaybird18c 24]

Quote

Besdes, his own logic precludes the ability of God to exist since a thinking being requires information, and there's nowhere for that information to come from.

God is the uncaused cause and the source.

[jaybird18c 24]

[replyI guess he's never seen a hexagonal crystalline system, expressing space P6(2)22 and P6(4)22 structures, arising by itself from disordered matter. (You may have seen them - they are called quartz crystals.)

Check out zeolite crystallization. You go straight from soup to elegant complexity, orders of magnitude more so than quartz.

Zeolites, aluminosilicate clays, catalyze the formation of nucleic acids. It is ironic that my Bronze Age forebears, stuck in your basic stinking desert, made the connection between clay and the foundations of life.

Of course, this level of technology is sophisticated enough to be indistinguishable from magic.

[billvon 2,990]

Quote

Research on the origin of life seems to be unique in that the conclusion has already been authoritatively accepted … . What remains to be done is to find the scenarios which describe the detailed mechanisms and processes by which this happened. One must conclude that, contrary to the established and current wisdom, a scenario describing the genesis of life on earth by chance and natural causes which can be accepted on the basis of fact and not faith has not yet been written.

Correct. We now know how life _could_ have begun - several experiments have shown that simple life can begin with nothing more than basic chemicals. Which one of those paths life took is, as yet, unknown.

[jaybird18c 24]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda...
Awesome!

https://youtu.be/TUetJ3umTWU

[jaybird18c 24]

Materialism seems an awful lot like religion.

https://youtu.be/Pckg3Kud8_A

[billvon 2,990]

>Materialism seems an awful lot like religion.

I agree. I prefer science to both.

[jakee 1,489]

jaybird18c

God is the uncaused cause and the source.

If uncaused causes are possible you've eliminated the need for god to be a cause, and demolished your own 'evidence'.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,990]

>If uncaused causes are possible you've eliminated the need for god to be a cause,
>and demolished your own 'evidence'.

God is the untrue truth and the imaginary hard evidence. He is the nonexistent existence; the void that is full. He is the nothing that is the all.

(Is that confusing enough while still sounding profound? If not I'll redo it.)

[DJL 235]

I think we can wrap up this conversation by reciting the words of the Prophet Belinda Carlisle:

"Ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth?
Ooh, heaven is a place on earth
They say in heaven, love comes first
We'll make heaven a place on earth
Ooh, heaven is a place on earth"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOGEyBeoBGM

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,990]

>"Ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth?"

Black Mirror has now changed what I think of when I hear that song.

[jaybird18c 24]

jakee

***God is the uncaused cause and the source.

If uncaused causes are possible you've eliminated the need for god to be a cause, and demolished your own 'evidence'.

God is the uncaused cause (singular). He is even the reason for your ability to reason against him.

[DJL 235]

billvon

>"Ooh, baby, do you know what that's worth?"

Black Mirror has now changed what I think of when I hear that song.

I'm just trying to make a point that we have more documentation of Belinda Carlisle having lived than we do of Jesus having lived and her words are very clear that Heaven is a place on Earth.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[jakee 1,489]

jaybird18c

God is the uncaused cause (singular).

Right, see now we’re back to “you can’t just say it and have it be true”.

You have no evidence or logical process to show there is any need for a god to be an uncaused cause. Your attempted proof is self defeating.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[tonyhays 86]

Quote

God is the uncaused cause (singular).

Sounds a bit like the William Lane Craig's version of the cosmological argument..it summarizes below...

"Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
The universe began to exist;
Therefore:
The universe has a cause.

The universe has a cause;
If the universe has a cause, then an uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful;
Therefore:
An uncaused, personal Creator of the universe exists, who sans the universe is beginningless, changeless, immaterial, timeless, spaceless and enormously powerful."

Unfortunately for him, he violates his premise. No one has ever observed an uncaused cause, therefore he is begging the question.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[434 2]

If there is a heaven and hell, I go to Vallhalla!

But, from dust to dust and a free trip in space with a big bang, is more likely going to happen to me, as the rest of us, before everything restarts, mor or less as we experienced it. A new galaxy and another promised heaven and new start.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

jaybird18c

******God is the uncaused cause and the source.

If uncaused causes are possible you've eliminated the need for god to be a cause, and demolished your own 'evidence'.

God is the uncaused cause (singular). He is even the reason for your ability to reason against him.

Still waiting on that "preponderance of evidence."

Still waiting on one shred of evidence.

People making deductive conclusions based on conjecture and reasoning that has been proven wrong over and over doesn't count.
People using Bronze age myths, legends and folk tales, even when they convene formal "confessions" to attempt to explain inconsistencies doesn't count.

Real. Tangible. Testable.

Evidence.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DJL 235]

wolfriverjoe

*********God is the uncaused cause and the source.

If uncaused causes are possible you've eliminated the need for god to be a cause, and demolished your own 'evidence'.

God is the uncaused cause (singular). He is even the reason for your ability to reason against him.

Still waiting on that "preponderance of evidence."

Still waiting on one shred of evidence.

People making deductive conclusions based on conjecture and reasoning that has been proven wrong over and over doesn't count.
People using Bronze age myths, legends and folk tales, even when they convene formal "confessions" to attempt to explain inconsistencies doesn't count.

Real. Tangible. Testable.

Evidence.

Lol. I don't think I've ever seen a more concise circular argument than: "God is the uncaused cause (singular). He is even the reason for your ability to reason against him."

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher