Can an atheist get into Heaven

[RonD1120 62]

  jakee

***That is true. A Christian will not, can not, be persuaded to turn away from truth.

So how come some of them do?

I believe they were Christian in name only, similar to what we call RINOs. They never experienced true salvation. Judas Iscariot is the Biblical example of a make believe Christian.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[gowlerk 2,241]

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That is true. A Christian will not, can not, be persuaded to turn away from truth.

Many millions of Christians are now former Christians. Including untold hundreds of thousands of faith leaders. But still I believe you are correct. They were not "persuaded". They looked inside themselves and realized that the immense wonder and mystery of the universe we can observe can not be explained by the lies of the charlatans who created the various scams we call churches.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[JoeWeber 2,794]

  RonD1120

******That is true. A Christian will not, can not, be persuaded to turn away from truth.

So how come some of them do?

I believe they were Christian in name only, similar to what we call RINOs. They never experienced true salvation. Judas Iscariot is the Biblical example of a make believe Christian.

It seems evident that you have at least some doubt about your faith. Why else would you persistently engage the non-believers on this forum?

I've seen no evidence that you've caused any atheists to reconsider their positions. That leaves only the testing of your own.

[jaybird18c 24]

  jakee

***That is true. A Christian will not, can not, be persuaded to turn away from truth.

So how come some of them do?

False conversion.

[jaybird18c 24]

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Luke 21: 32-33 is one. There are others.

Here’s the problem with cherry picking verses and inserting your own meaning into them. If you read what’s before and after, it explains things which will occur with the judgment of Jerusalem which did occur. But it does not say that Jesus will return in the lifetime of the apostles. Actually, in other verses, it explains that it will be a very long time before he returns. That’s good for those of us who need time to come to our senses.

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You are the one accusing me of being a 'murderer, liar, thief, adulterer, ect'.
While I am a sinner, I am far from a 'evil' person. Just trying to get through the world as best I can.

You just said “While I am a sinner (biblical term).” Sin is defined in scripture as “transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4),” referring to God’s moral Law (The 10 Commandments).

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I agree that I am responsible for my actions, but I also agree with Jakee when he pointed out that you claimed it's impossible for us not to sin because God made us that way.
Since he created us as sinners, how is it not his fault that we sin?

No more that it's the cat's fault that he eats mice.

You weren’t created to be a sinner. You’re a sinner because you choose to sin.
The “Devil made me do it” excuse doesn’t even work in our judicial system.
It won’t in God’s court either.

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Huge difference between a criminal standing in front of a judge about to be sentenced and standing in judgement before God.

The judge did not create the criminal.
The judge did not create the laws that the criminal broke.

If I have to stand before God, it would not be as a criminal would stand before a judge, but far, far different

(1 Peter 4:5) “but they will give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.”

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

  jaybird18c

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Luke 21: 32-33 is one. There are others.

Here’s the problem with cherry picking verses and inserting your own meaning into them. If you read what’s before and after, it explains things which will occur with the judgment of Jerusalem which did occur. But it does not say that Jesus will return in the lifetime of the apostles. Actually, in other verses, it explains that it will be a very long time before he returns. That’s good for those of us who need time to come to our senses.

He says "In this lifetime". That's there and in other verses. I'm not sure what 'meaning' I'm inserting into those words.

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You are the one accusing me of being a 'murderer, liar, thief, adulterer, ect'.
While I am a sinner, I am far from a 'evil' person. Just trying to get through the world as best I can.

You just said “While I am a sinner (biblical term).” Sin is defined in scripture as “transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4),” referring to God’s moral Law (The 10 Commandments).

That's funny. I seem to remember a lot more 'sins' than just those laid out in the "big 10."

And, just like there's a difference between going, say 10 over the speed limit or a rolling stop and reckless or intoxicated driving, I would expect that there's a difference in sins.

Or does 'your' God condemn anyone who transgresses in any way to the pits of hell?

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I agree that I am responsible for my actions, but I also agree with Jakee when he pointed out that you claimed it's impossible for us not to sin because God made us that way.
Since he created us as sinners, how is it not his fault that we sin?

No more that it's the cat's fault that he eats mice.

You weren’t created to be a sinner. You’re a sinner because you choose to sin.
The “Devil made me do it” excuse doesn’t even work in our judicial system.
It won’t in God’s court either.

Make up your mind. Either we were created sinners (or that choice was made a long, long time ago) or we weren't.

***I believe they were Christian in name only, similar to what we call RINOs. They never experienced true salvation. Judas Iscariot is the Biblical example of a make believe Christian.

First off, how would Jesus have fulfilled his role if Judas had not betrayed him? By turning Jesus into the Romans, Judas played perhaps the most important role in Jesus' death.
I'm not totally convinced he was a bad person.

And your "CINO" folks:

Would you consider those who 'find Jesus' with words and not deeds among them?

Would you think that someone who proclaims that they have been "saved" yet absolutely, completely and totally refuse to follow Jesus' teachings while still here on earth to be a "true Christian"?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jaybird18c 24]

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Nah. Depends on what you lie to them about. If you lie to a guy on the street and it results in him giving you money under false pretences, you coud go to jail for a long time. If you lie to your boss about whether you think his kids are cute, not much will happen.
The key is mostly still whether the lie is important in and of itself.

The God who is perfectly holy and righteous thinks lying is a pretty big deal. (Proverbs 12:22) But let's say just for the sake of argument that you are correct. Forget whichever little white lies you want to discount. How many real lies do you think you've told in your life which actually resulted in hurting another person?

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Just so we're clear then - the nature of every human being was corrupted long before I was born? That sounds like a pretty textbook definition of 'so it's not my fault'.

Corrupted by sin.
Not by God.

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How am I free to choose if it's impossible for me not to choose sin?

Whether a person is a follower of Christ or not, they still freely choose. The unconverted nature always has the propensity to choose that which is in opposition to God. The converted nature, even though they will still sin because of their fallen nature; albeit not an excuse to habitually sin, has a new propensity to think and do that which is in accordance with God’s will.

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Just so we're clear then - god could choose to regenerate my nature, and the very nature of creation, and enable me to live a life free of sin? That sounds like a pretty textbook definition of 'so it's his responsibility.

No one is free of sin until they die. If they’ve repented and placed their faith in Jesus Christ, they will be what the bible terms as “glorified.” Cleansed of all sin. But not until then. The difference, however, during this lifetime was previously described.

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[jaybird18c 24]

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He says "In this lifetime". That's there and in other verses. I'm not sure what 'meaning' I'm inserting into those words.

Well put up or shut up. To which verse are you referring? Plenty of very learned biblical scholars back up what I told you with regard to the judgment of Jerusalem as the meaning of what would occur during their generation (e.g. AD 70). It does not say that Jesus will return in the lifetime of any 1st Century Jew.

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That's funny. I seem to remember a lot more 'sins' than just those laid out in the "big 10."

And you obviously don’t understand the differences and meaning behind the laws described in the bible. That being civil (that pertaining only to the Nation of Israel), ceremonial (those whose purpose was to foreshadow the perfect sacrifice which was to come; one which wouldn’t merely “cover” their sin but take it away; fulfilled in the work of Christ on the cross), and moral (which still are applicable for us today). The bible is a progressive revelation of God's plan of salvation for his people. It describes the historical trials and tribulations, successes and failures, of a people who repeatedly turned away from and back towards God as he directed them out of a pagan, polytheistic, culture.

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And, just like there's a difference between going, say 10 over the speed limit or a rolling stop and reckless or intoxicated driving, I would expect that there's a difference in sins.

Or does 'your' God condemn anyone who transgresses in any way to the pits of hell?

And you definitely do not comprehend the holiness of God who cannot be in the presence of even the smallest sin. However, you are correct in that there are some more grievous than others. There are also more severe levels of punishment in hell. However, at that point, it doesn’t really matter. It’s still hell. That’s why people often refer to all sin being the same.

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Make up your mind. Either we were created sinners (or that choice was made a long, long time ago) or we weren't.

Please review what was discussed concerning the unconverted vs. the converted nature of man.

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Would you think that someone who proclaims that they have been "saved" yet absolutely, completely and totally refuse to follow Jesus' teachings while still here on earth to be a "true Christian"?

No.

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[jaybird18c 24]

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First off, how would Jesus have fulfilled his role if Judas had not betrayed him? By turning Jesus into the Romans, Judas played perhaps the most important role in Jesus' death. I'm not totally convinced he was a bad person.

God uses or, as in theological terms, overrules even the evil deeds of men for his purposes. An example being when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery. Because of Joseph's faith and obedience, he was blessed and eventually rose to a position of importance in Egypt second only to the Pharaoh. Joseph later was confronted by the brothers who betrayed him. Instead of condemnation, he showed mercy and forgiveness (also an OT foreshadow) resulting in their redemption.

[RonD1120 62]

  gowlerk

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That is true. A Christian will not, can not, be persuaded to turn away from truth.

Many millions of Christians are now former Christians. Including untold hundreds of thousands of faith leaders. But still I believe you are correct. They were not "persuaded". They looked inside themselves and realized that the immense wonder and mystery of the universe we can observe can not be explained by the lies of the charlatans who created the various scams we call churches.

1 Timothy 4
[ The Great Apostasy ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. ...

The Holy Spirit spoke to me this morning. He said, when the admirers, the sceptics and, the make believers have left the disciples will remain. And, they are Mine.

These are signs of the latter days.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[RonD1120 62]

  JoeWeber

*********That is true. A Christian will not, can not, be persuaded to turn away from truth.

So how come some of them do?

I believe they were Christian in name only, similar to what we call RINOs. They never experienced true salvation. Judas Iscariot is the Biblical example of a make believe Christian.

It seems evident that you have at least some doubt about your faith. Why else would you persistently engage the non-believers on this forum?

I've seen no evidence that you've caused any atheists to reconsider their positions. That leaves only the testing of your own.

Nice try but no, I have no doubt regarding my faith.

What would make you think you would see evidence in cyberspace? It is said, one plants and one waters but Jesus reaps the harvest.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jcd11235 0]

  RonD1120

I believe they were Christian in name only …

Many might reasonably conclude the same about you, based on your posts.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[JoeWeber 2,794]

  RonD1120

************That is true. A Christian will not, can not, be persuaded to turn away from truth.

So how come some of them do?

I believe they were Christian in name only, similar to what we call RINOs. They never experienced true salvation. Judas Iscariot is the Biblical example of a make believe Christian.

It seems evident that you have at least some doubt about your faith. Why else would you persistently engage the non-believers on this forum?

I've seen no evidence that you've caused any atheists to reconsider their positions. That leaves only the testing of your own.

Nice try but no, I have no doubt regarding my faith.

What would make you think you would see evidence in cyberspace? It is said, one plants and one waters but Jesus reaps the harvest.


You're all in and the flop is coming. Given that, I don't doubt you'll finish out the day's of the only life you'll ever live claiming you believe without any reservation.

It's more of a between the lines sort of thing; a gut feeling if that's allowed. To any example, you'd always be able to claim it ain't so or we're all imperfect or that's not how you would say it again as you now think about it, and so on. After all, it's whats in your heart not in your words, yes?

So I'll just take a page from the book of Ron and say that it's just what I believe about you. And I think I'm right.

[jakee 1,554]

  RonD1120

******That is true. A Christian will not, can not, be persuaded to turn away from truth.

So how come some of them do?

I believe they were Christian in name only, similar to what we call RINOs. They never experienced true salvation.

If you're a real christian, why are you so bad at behaving like one?

"The Bible also teaches that if a person proclaims they are a Christian we are to accept them as such. We are not to judge their level of faith, their walk or their behavior."

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,554]

  jaybird18c

******That is true. A Christian will not, can not, be persuaded to turn away from truth.

So how come some of them do?

False conversion.

Ron thinks you're ignoring biblical teaching when you say that. What do you think?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,554]

  jaybird18c

You weren’t created to be a sinner. You’re a sinner because you choose to sin.

You just said we're sinners because someone else once chose to sin.

You said it's impossible for us not to sin. So in what way is it our fault that at some point in our lives we will sin?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,554]

  jaybird18c

How many real lies do you think you've told in your life which actually resulted in hurting another person?

Why does it matter if I hurt another person? You've already said it doesn't matter how good I am towards other people if I'm not good towards god.

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Just so we're clear then - the nature of every human being was corrupted long before I was born? That sounds like a pretty textbook definition of 'so it's not my fault'.

Corrupted by sin.
Not by God.

How does that affect the point that it's not my fault? I didn't corrupt it, yet I have to overcome it, which is impossible for me to do.

And no matter how the universe or my nature was corrupted, you said god could uncorrupt it if he chose. But he doesn't. He just sits there watching us, in the full knowledge that every single one of us will fail, and does nothing about it. So again, it's sounds like the situation of being fucked before we've even started is his responsibility.

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Whether a person is a follower of Christ or not, they still freely choose. The unconverted nature always has the propensity to choose that which is in opposition to God.

So again, not my fault that I was designed that way. If it's so important, why aren't we redesigned?

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The converted nature, even though they will still sin because of their fallen nature; albeit not an excuse to habitually sin, has a new propensity to think and do that which is in accordance with God’s will.

More confirmation that there is literally no way to avoid sin. No-one can do it. It's so far beyond the reach of humanity it's in a different solar system. So it's not our fault.

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Just so we're clear then - god could choose to regenerate my nature, and the very nature of creation, and enable me to live a life free of sin? That sounds like a pretty textbook definition of 'so it's his responsibility.

No one is free of sin until they die. If they’ve repented and placed their faith in Jesus Christ, they will be what the bible terms as “glorified.” Cleansed of all sin. But not until then. The difference, however, during this lifetime was previously described.

But just so we're clear - god could choose to regenerate my nature, and the very nature of creation, and enable me to live a life free of sin? That sounds like a pretty textbook definition of 'so it's his responsibility.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jaybird18c 24]

[Reply]Ron thinks you're ignoring biblical teaching when you say that. What do you think?

[jakee 1,554]

  jaybird18c

[Reply]Ron thinks you're ignoring biblical teaching when you say that. What do you think?

Nope. We're saying the same thing.

[christelsabine 1]

  jaybird18c

[Reply]Ron thinks you're ignoring biblical teaching when you say that. What do you think?

Nope. We're saying the same thing.

No. You both do not. From your post No. 230:

"You weren’t created to be a sinner. You’re a sinner because you choose to sin."

Ron claimed, we all are born sinners, means even a newborn is a sinner.

I think it's appropriate to just call Christian belief a bunch of weasel words - that's what old people use to do when the end is coming closer, years can be counted on one hand - so: flight forward. If it helps .... why not??

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[jaybird18c 24]

Can I answer Jakee and you at the same time?

Chapter 3 of the Westminster Confession speaks of God’s eternal decree and states: “God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

Scriptural reference includes: Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15 ,18, Jam. 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5, Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27,28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33.

Your question has to do with the concept of primary and secondary causation. God does in fact ordain everything that comes to pass “in a certain sense.” A primary sense. He did in fact create people whom he foreknew would sin against him. Although he knows what they will do, he never causes them, in a secondary sense, to sin. This does not make God the author of sin. God knows before I sin that I will. God often times chooses to allow me to do it rather than not (God’s permissive will). He could stop me and punish me on the spot but chooses not to. We have free will to choose. In choosing to sin (secondary cause), I retain full responsibility. God is glorified when his full attributes are put on display. This is also for our good. In order to do that, he has to allow sin. Without it, it would not be possible for him to put on display all the other aspects of how he deals with sinners (e.g. justice, wrath, judgment, mercy, grace, compassion, forgiveness). Like I said before, God uses or, in theological terms, overrules even the evil deeds of men for his purposes, for good, and for his glory.

[jaybird18c 24]

  jakee

***How many real lies do you think you've told in your life which actually resulted in hurting another person?

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Why does it matter if I hurt another person?

That doesn't answer the question.

[christelsabine 1]

  jaybird18c

******How many real lies do you think you've told in your life which actually resulted in hurting another person?

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Why does it matter if I hurt another person?

That doesn't answer the question.

OK then - how many real lies do you think you've told in your life which actualy resulted in hurting another person?

Just answer in figure/s .... ?

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[JoeWeber 2,794]

  jaybird18c

Can I answer Jakee and you at the same time?

Chapter 3 of the Westminster Confession speaks of God’s eternal decree and states: “God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”

Scriptural reference includes: Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Heb. 6:17, Rom. 9:15 ,18, Jam. 1:13,17, 1 John 1:5, Acts 2:23, Matt. 17:12, Acts 4:27,28, John 19:11, Prov. 16:33.

Your question has to do with the concept of primary and secondary causation. God does in fact ordain everything that comes to pass “in a certain sense.” A primary sense. He did in fact create people whom he foreknew would sin against him. Although he knows what they will do, he never causes them, in a secondary sense, to sin. This does not make God the author of sin. God knows before I sin that I will. God often times chooses to allow me to do it rather than not (God’s permissive will). He could stop me and punish me on the spot but chooses not to. We have free will to choose. In choosing to sin (secondary cause), I retain full responsibility. God is glorified when his full attributes are put on display. This is also for our good. In order to do that, he has to allow sin. Without it, it would not be possible for him to put on display all the other aspects of how he deals with sinners (e.g. justice, wrath, judgment, mercy, grace, compassion, forgiveness). Like I said before, God uses or, in theological terms, overrules even the evil deeds of men for his purposes, for good, and for his glory.

The Westminster Confession as an authority? Come on man, why not just quote your pastor or the guy in the next pew up? Believe that woo-woo if it makes you happy but to my ear it was indistinguishable from dementia.

[jaybird18c 24]

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OK then - how many real lies do you think you've told in your life which actualy resulted in hurting another person?

Just answer in figure/s .... ?

A bunch.

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