Mass Shootings Proposal [ON TOPIC]

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

BIGUN

I think it may be Apples and oranges, Joe.

Not every new gun sold (cause those "fingerprints" are already at the factory - except in digital format).
I "believe" the suggestion was: If *after* the sale AND there's a change to the weapon that has an effect on that digital fingerprint - send the information in.
Am I reading that right?

Not really.

My point is that there was that database.

And it was completely useless. As Phil111 noted, there was no way to use it to identify a gun. There's no way to identify a case found at a crime scene with one in the database other than to look at each and every one.
In theory, if the cops had a suspect who had a gun in the database, they could go in and compare, but in reality that never happened.

Fingerprints, OTOH, have a classification process where each characteristic is given a number. That allows potential matches to be identified, with a fairly small number that have to be actually examined.

And it's not terribly difficult to alter a gun without telling anyone.

First off, bolts, barrels, firing pins, ect aren't serial numbered. They are totally unregulated as "parts". Unless you intend to extend registration and recorded transfers down to that level of parts, it would be impossible to track.

Also, a simple file or screwdriver can easily be used to alter the bolt face, firing pin or even the rifling in a barrel.
There was a case where a little .25 was used in a crime. The gun was given or sold and the recipient was informed that it had been used (and fired) in a crime. He took a screwdriver and scuffed up the rifling with it. The gun was later test fired, with the bullet compared to the crime scene bullet and it didn't match. I don't have a link on this, IIRC it was an episode of Forensic Files on TV.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jcd11235 0]

BIGUN

OK What are they? You keep implying that you have solutions to offer and then don't.

Again, reinstating the assault weapons ban is an excellent starting point.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[JoeWeber 2,720]

jcd11235

***OK What are they? You keep implying that you have solutions to offer and then don't.

Again, reinstating the assault weapons ban is an excellent starting point.

Bingo. Ban assault weapons, bump stocks, high capacity magazines etc.. Impose serious penalties for the possession of banned weapons. Ban open carry. Impose taxes on the sale of new and used firearms to help pay for a nationwide buy back program of the newly banned weapons and accessories. Demand that government fund these buy back programs.

Demand that media start showing the actual wounds suffered by the victims when covering mass shootings.

And while that's being worked out let's all quit suggesting that we need a military solution to a civilian problem.

Keith, we do not need: 6 Days - CQB in a MOUT environment (automatic (2), revolver (1) shotgun (1), rifle @ the range (2). (*) = days.

Seriously, who the hell who isn't military knows what that is? Brother, you want no real restrictions on your 2nd Amendment rights-as you see them-and to get there you want regular folks to conform to your idea of what is right.

Screw that. Instead of telling us what isn't conforming to your survey how about tossing us a bone. Which Firearms are you willing to ban outright to make a deal?

[pchapman 279]

Being an outsider, I used to wonder why the gun companies weren't starting to be sued like big tobacco was for billions, often by the States themselves. (Ok, it's a different product, and nobody is hiding evidence that guns are dangerous.)

Then I learned that the US has a "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA)" designed to stop gun manufacturers from being sued. Signed into law under George W. Bush in 2005.

How about that; certainly handy for the civilian arms industry!

[billvon 2,990]

pchapman

Being an outsider, I used to wonder why the gun companies weren't starting to be sued like big tobacco was for billions, often by the States themselves. (Ok, it's a different product, and nobody is hiding evidence that guns are dangerous.)

Then I learned that the US has a "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act (PLCAA)" designed to stop gun manufacturers from being sued. Signed into law under George W. Bush in 2005.

How about that; certainly handy for the civilian arms industry!

This is an on-topic post; please limit responses to whether you approve of the proposal or not, and/or what you would suggest as an alternative.

[wan2doit 6]

X 2 on this suggestion. "Demand that media start showing the actual wounds suffered by the victims when covering mass shootings."

I heard one Parkland parent say their child was shot 9 times - photos of those injuries with pre-shooting photos of same child would bring some kind of change.

Caveat - This would require approval of all immediate family members (e.g. mom, dad, siblings).

[kallend 2,026]

Poll is too binary. With so many items in the list, to gauge opinions it needs additional options.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tkhayes 348]

I am NOT OK with private sales with just 'paperwork'. The paperwork should include the transfer of weapons and accessories through your local LEO, since the background check would be required anyway for ALL sales. ALL of them.

Sale is arranged, guns and accessories go to LEO for escrow, LEO gets to background check and record the sale, serial numbers, makes and models and names/details of both parties, and then buyer gets to pick up at the LEO. Both buyer and seller get a background check to have databases kept current.

That controls the sale, the recording, the paperwork, the background check and the waiting period for that matter. A single existing entity that simply has some new record keeping.

ICE, DMVs, LEOs already share tons of information databases on people for a variety of DHS purposes, and there is no reason that these databases cannot serve as the source for background checks as they are federal and cover more people.

[Phil1111 1,149]

JoeWeber

******OK What are they? You keep implying that you have solutions to offer and then don't.

Again, reinstating the assault weapons ban is an excellent starting point.

Demand that media start showing the actual wounds suffered by the victims when covering mass shootings.



This is a simply outstanding idea. This is the current ad in Brazil on cigarette packaging is attached and one from the Gifford story below. Many other countries have the same or similar legislation. But you can't have the images on loaded ammo. The average voter needs to see the ads.

This is a proven effective measure for the anti tobacco efforts. Some people have no concept of the damage high speed metal can do to a body.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/tucson-shooting-gabrielle-giffords-survive-shot-head/story?id=12593878

[BIGUN 1,306]

tkhayes

I am NOT OK with private sales with just 'paperwork'. The paperwork should include the transfer of weapons and accessories through your local LEO, since the background check would be required anyway for ALL sales. ALL of them.

Sale is arranged, guns and accessories go to LEO for escrow, LEO gets to background check and record the sale, serial numbers, makes and models and names/details of both parties, and then buyer gets to pick up at the LEO. Both buyer and seller get a background check to have databases kept current.

That controls the sale, the recording, the paperwork, the background check and the waiting period for that matter. A single existing entity that simply has some new record keeping.

ICE, DMVs, LEOs already share tons of information databases on people for a variety of DHS purposes, and there is no reason that these databases cannot serve as the source for background checks as they are federal and cover more people.

I think the only thing I might modify in your suggestion, TK is to change LEO to specifically be the role of ATF (and they are under Homeland now - to further supplement your thoughts on database).

From their site

Quote

Mission
ATF protects the public from crimes involving firearms, explosives, arson, and the diversion of alcohol and tobacco products; regulates lawful commerce in firearms and explosives; and provides worldwide support to law enforcement, public safety, and industry partners.

Vision
A world-class law enforcement organization committed to safeguarding lives by protecting the public from violent crime.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wan2doit 6]

Simply LOCK (possibly deadbolt) school classroom doors when kids are in - from now on. Teacher opens and relocks for restroom trips.

Bottom line teacher to be 100% in control of locks - accountability and zero confusion of where responsibility lies.

Door found unlocked at inappropriate time when class in session teacher is fired - not to be mean but need accountability. Downside - union issues/contract update.

Acceptability might hinge upon other safety factors/issues such as evacuation for fire etc.

[jcd11235 0]

wan2doit

Simply LOCK (possibly deadbolt) school classroom doors when kids are in - from now on. Teacher opens and relocks for restroom trips.

Focusing on schools misses the larger problem of mass shootings. They don't just occur in schools. Las Vegas and Orlando come immediately to mind as recent examples, though I'm undoubtedly missing some.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[PhreeZone 20]

As mentioned this only solves a small portion of the issues and the reality is that there is no way this is enforceable. The number of children that need to come and go from a classroom (at the elementary level especially) is extremely high. Restroom, office trips - coming and going, parents bringing items, needing to get supplies, class moving to another area, etc - the door would be unlocked and the teacher would need to basically stand next to it for most of the day. I visit to a school that was built in the last 6 years quite a lot and the doors are made with kick resistant glass and most of the windows are obscured so that you can not see in nor out. The poured cement wall hallways have thick wooden doors in them that are always closed so you can't see more than 2-3 classrooms down to see what is happening past that point. I was told that the thought process is that the teachers would be locking those doors shut to allow all the kids to escape away from a situation - thus forcing the shooter to either shoot blindly through the door or find targets elsewhere in the building. The front door is a double buzzer system where you need to be buzzed into the lobby and then again into the school, all the other doors are on a key card system to access. Shy of installing bulletproof glass and bag scanners across the entire building the level of security is about equal to that of several federal government facilities I work with. The school has lockdown and active shooter drills for grades K-4 all the time in addition to fire and tornado drills. None of these measures really will stop someone, they are all about slowing a shooter down bit by bit. We live in a state where Teachers could carry and non of the teachers in this school will. Some are very Pro 2A but the issue is that any failure to control the weapon 100% at all times in 100% of any possible situation could result in a weapon now ending up in the hands of a child or youth. This just increases the possibility of issues either via accident or on purpose too much.


In regards to the original proposal there are some items I was not seeing addressed and I'm not sure if its needed or not and that's the need to define the needs for any sort of registration. I know way to many people that have been buying up receivers on the secondary market just to make sure they have something with a serial number that no one knows any history on and will never register. If the intent is to start a registration process is there a penalty for not doing it and is the penalty high enough that one is not willing to risk it? Also what is the enforce ability behind it? Similar to the Colorado magazine restrictions - if no one wants to enforce it (aka having someone randomly attempting purchases and then auditing or popping into gunshows and inspecting everything, checking out ownership via ammo sales, etc) is it worth the paper to pass anything? Is a $100 fine for not doing it enough? Make it a felony and you are going to have a LOT of accidentally incidents occurring when you have firearms being passed on from generation to generation or even just being loaned out for hunting. Too high of a price and its going to never pass, too low of a penalty and no one will do it since the fine is pocket change for someone that will send 300 rounds down range in an afternoon.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

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[BartsDaddy 7]

tkhayes

I am NOT OK with private sales with just 'paperwork'. The paperwork should include the transfer of weapons and accessories through your local LEO, since the background check would be required anyway for ALL sales. ALL of them.

Sale is arranged, guns and accessories go to LEO for escrow, LEO gets to background check and record the sale, serial numbers, makes and models and names/details of both parties, and then buyer gets to pick up at the LEO. Both buyer and seller get a background check to have databases kept current.

That controls the sale, the recording, the paperwork, the background check and the waiting period for that matter. A single existing entity that simply has some new record keeping.

ICE, DMVs, LEOs already share tons of information databases on people for a variety of DHS purposes, and there is no reason that these databases cannot serve as the source for background checks as they are federal and cover more people.

Yes because LEO Is so underworked now. Let's have them preside over gun transfers too. Do you have any idea how many guns they would have on site at one time even with only a two day wait. What facilities would LEO have to store them?

Handguns are only used to fight your way to a good rifle

[gowlerk 2,190]

Quote

Simply LOCK (possibly deadbolt) school classroom doors when kids are in - from now on. Teacher opens and relocks for restroom trips.

I'm guessing the fire marshall might object to that.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

Quote

And, yet you had to perform armed guard duty for physical assets while in the military. But, sound as though you're opposed to protecting human assets the same way.

Children aren't assets, they are innocent human beings. When murderous lunatics spray them with bullets from military style assault weapons as they huddle in terror our force levels are not simply being reduced.

Consequently, in the same way that I believe the reality of seeing the carnage would more honestly shape the debate, clearly articulating that we are not discussing replaceable or inanimate objects would be helpful.

[DanG 1]

I can mostly agree with everything except #4. That level of training is simply unrealistic for 95% of Americans. I graduated from the US Army Infantry Officer's Basic Course, and your MOUT (military operations in urban terrain) training is at least as much if not more than what we received. MOUT week was also the most physically demanding week we had, except maybe the final excercise. I can't imagine little old Mrs. Smith from down the block completing that level of training because she wants to keep a .22 in her nightstand.

Also, why require training the pistol, shotgun, and rifle? I think training on the particular weapon you want to buy makes more sense.

A training class of two days with one day at the range and the other on safe handling and storage I think is probably plenty, and much more realistic.

- Dan G

[tkhayes 348]

Quote

Yes because LEO Is so underworked now. ....

I never said not to fund it - we fund DMVs with licensing fees and taxes. And dozens if not HUNDREDS of other govt services.

We can do the same for this model

[BIGUN 1,306]

Morning, Dan.

There was no intention of MOUT as the same caliber of training as that of infantry. "MOUT-type, MOUT environment" is what I had expressed in previous and proposal writings. What we can do is teach Joe/Jane Citizen that drywall is not a friggin bullet block, how to shoot, move & (not) communicate in the dark, use of your home to your advantage, exit & entry for civilians, category of weapon best for your environment... It would be an abbreviated "educational" course. You need to remember that you had infantry skills when you showed up to MOUT and it was a week - this is without any infantry skills for the average person with zero to minimal previous experience. We could offer waiver for those in combat arms/MP/ etc. type MOS' (thoughts?), but not for "any time in the past twenty years for any branch."

Quote

Also, why require training the pistol, shotgun, and rifle? I think training on the particular weapon you want to buy makes more sense.

I understand your thought process. But we're not licensing the person on a particular weapon; we're licensing the person - period. The more familiar people are with the varying categories (you'll notice I didn't put individual types of weapons); the more educated they will be.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[DJL 235]

I also think that any gun sale should go back through a FFL (Not an LEO) to verify that the sale is coming from the person on record, going to the person on record, that the weapon is how it reads on the paperwork and both parties are licensed. A $15 processing fee would make gun shops more than happy to process a 15 minute transaction and besides now they're getting people who actually buy and sell into their stores.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DanG 1]

Hi,

I understand better what you mean now.

I still think a required two week training course is tough to swallow. It would essentially put legal firearms owners out of bounds for most people except the wealthy. Not too many working class people can afford to take two weeks off to attend a training class. Even if you did it on the weekend it would be tough for most people with responsibilities (kids, 2nd job, caring for elderly or sick relatives) to devote seven full weekends.

I really think a two day course will teach most people what they really need to know. You could certainly require additional training if they wanted to open or concealed carry.

As far as exempting military and LEO, I would be against it. I did IOBC almost 25 years ago. My continuing training in the Army was definitely not focused on home defense. Even my two tours overseas in a combat environment would not teach my what I needed in in civilian defense situation. And I probably had more and better training than most veterans. If you make the training course a two day class I don't think it is unreasonable to ask everyone to do it.

- Dan G

[BIGUN 1,306]

Quote

In regards to the original proposal there are some items I was not seeing addressed and I'm not sure if its needed or not and that's the need to define the needs for any sort of registration. I know way to many people that have been buying up receivers on the secondary market just to make sure they have something with a serial number that no one knows any history on and will never register.

@Phreezone - In my mind, Registration means registering everything. Non-registration = Felony. The 8 days of training would include registration requirement (transfer. storage) If you've been trained on how to fill out a dealer's log then turn it over to the ATF and people are given enough time to go home and from course to ATF registration = X days, (X could be 90 days) then they would have enough time to comply.

Quote

...having someone randomly attempting purchases and then auditing or popping into gunshows and inspecting everything, checking out ownership via ammo sales, etc) is it worth the paper to pass anything? Is a $100 fine for not doing it enough? Make it a felony.

The ATF does this at gun shows. Many simply don't realize it because it's not in the media. And most illegal gun purchases are felonies. One of the many reasons I surrendered my FFL back in the 90's and sent all my yellow sheets to the archives was because it was becoming more constraining to be a part-time gun dealer. If one is a licensed FFL and they operate out of their home... they were waiving their right to a warrant. It wasn't just that, but it was everything combined that found me spending more time on paperwork than the profits I was making from a part-time/sometime endeavor.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jcd11235 0]

DanG

I really think a two day course will teach most people what they really need to know. You could certainly require additional training if they wanted to open or concealed carry.

I understand both sides here. Perhaps there should be a tier of training that allows in-home and range possession, but outside the home/range the weapon must be locked in a case.

A second tier could provide much more advanced training that more appropriately prepares people for public carry.

DanG

As far as exempting military and LEO, I would be against it.

Agreed. If they possess the skillset, the course should be a piece of cake.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[BIGUN 1,306]

Quote

I still think a required two week training course is tough to swallow. It would essentially put legal firearms owners out of bounds for most people except the wealthy. Not too many working class people can afford to take two weeks off to attend a training class. Even if you did it on the weekend it would be tough for most people with responsibilities (kids, 2nd job, caring for elderly or sick relatives) to devote seven full weekends.

I really think a two day course will teach most people what they really need to know. You could certainly require additional training if they wanted to open or concealed carry.

I was thinking the 14 days could be done over a year-long period. My S/O took the concealed carry course. People with our type of background find that a bit silly. She had one day of classroom on laws and one day of the whole class shooting 50 rounds at a 25 yard silhouette. Long as they hit the paper most of the time - good!?!?!?! Needless to say; I then taught her what she should really know.

I would be receptive to somewhere in-between. But, my own observation of the two day course is not flattering.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[BIGUN 1,306]

DJL

I also think that any gun sale should go back through a FFL (Not an LEO) to verify that the sale is coming from the person on record, going to the person on record, that the weapon is how it reads on the paperwork and both parties are licensed. A $15 processing fee would make gun shops more than happy to process a 15 minute transaction and besides now they're getting people who actually buy and sell into their stores.

FFL's come and go. I can see the process including an FFL as a geographic convenience, but in the end - the ATF being the main database anchor.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.