Does being a USPA GM DZ mean the DZ is safer than not being a GM member?

[Hooknswoop 19]

All other things being equal, does being a USPA Group Member Drop Zone mean that it is safer than a non USPA Group Member Drop Zone?

Derek V

[riggerrob 643]

Sometimes yes and sometimes no.
For example, there is a Canadian DZ that quit CSPA and now operates as a USPA DZ.
They do not use seatbelts. Belts are difficult to find in their Kodiak and only a few seats in their other plane have access to belts. So that DZ ignores USPA, FAA, CSPA and Transport Canada’s policies on seat belts.

I am old enough to remember why seat belt regulations are written in blood. I worked at Hinkley, Illinois in September of 1992. I attended waaaaaaay too many funerals that month.

[gowlerk 2,192]

All other things being equal? Well then no, by definition.

[gowlerk 2,192]

riggerrob

Sometimes yes and sometimes no.
For example, there is a Canadian DZ that quit CSPA and now operates as a USPA DZ.
They do not use seatbelts. Belts are difficult to find in their Kodiak and only a few seats in their other plane have access to belts. So that DZ ignores USPA, FAA, CSPA and Transport Canada’s policies on seat belts.

I am old enough to remember why seat belt regulations are written in blood. I worked at Hinkley, Illinois in September of 1992. I attended waaaaaaay too many funerals that month.

Someone needs to talk to TC about that.

[riggerrob 643]

TC, CSPA and at least and a couple of DZOs all think I am an A##hole, so there is no harm.
OTOH some jumpers get upset when you “rat them out the o the government.”
I will start by sending private e-mails to Chuck Akers and the Northwest Regional Director.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Well, all other things are not equal.

There are non-GM DZs that follow all the rules, and could be 'poster children' for the GM program.
There are others that don't maintain their planes and have TIs with no ratings.

There are GM DZs who follow all the rules.
There are others that allow big turns into the same landing area as regular traffic. There are some that fill out the 'airplane' form with a bunch of lies.

All in all, it's a way for USPA to generate income and for DZs to get listed as "USPA Approved." Not a whole lot else.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[LeeroyJenkins 3]

wolfriverjoe

Well, all other things are not equal.

There are non-GM DZs that follow all the rules, and could be 'poster children' for the GM program.
There are others that don't maintain their planes and have TIs with no ratings.

There are GM DZs who follow all the rules.
There are others that allow big turns into the same landing area as regular traffic. There are some that fill out the 'airplane' form with a bunch of lies.

All in all, it's a way for USPA to generate income and for DZs to get listed as "USPA Approved." Not a whole lot else.

Income that can be used for advocating the sport

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

LeeroyJenkins

Income that can be used for advocating the sport

Or donations for a museum.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[LeeroyJenkins 3]

wolfriverjoe

***

Income that can be used for advocating the sport

Or donations for a museum.

Or that too.

[billvon 2,991]

If everything else is equal, then the DZ's are the same. Having the "USPA" label at that point doesn't mean anything.

In general, being a USPA DZ means they are more likely to follow USPA rules, which are also generally better than no rules (or local rules.)

[AtrusBatleth 0]

It doesn't necessarily mean the DZ is safer because of the USPA membership, but in my mind it's a matter of correlation. Those DZs that are doing their best to enforce the BSRs and promote a good safety culture are more likely to want to join as a member, because if you're doing most of the work you might as well take that last step and be USPA sanctioned. Whereas those DZs that are a bit more sketchy are more likely to not bother.

So, if I have no additional information on a DZ (perhaps a better way of phrasing the question than "all things being equal"), yes I would choose the USPA sanctioned DZ. That doesn't mean a whole lot though, because in reality I would seek additional information about a prospective DZ and the USPA rating would amount to a hill of beans. I don't even think to ask if a DZ is a group member or not. I would like it if the rating actually meant something, as in USPA revoking membership for organizational violations. A graded approach would be nice, so it's not all-or-nothing, which I suspect is one reason why USPA is hesitant to revoke membership which could be perceived as a very harsh reaction to what may be minor violations.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[stratostar 5]

Well some of those non USPA gm dz’s are not safer, because they were kicked out for ongoing and repeated violations of FARs and BSRs along with bad maintenance practices. So in general yes most the time you’d be safer at a USPA gm dz.... but not always. The offending dz’s that were kicked out at one time used to be GM dz’s.

Seeing how Rob brought up the Hinkley crash, it’s doubtful those seat belts would have changed the out come, however not hanging a rotten R985 that spent the last 15 yrs or so on a display plane and not preserved in any fashion, then installed by a non A&P shade tree mechanic, most likely would have changed the out come!

That crash was a direct result of one of the people who’s GM dz was kicked out of USPA for life for just those kind of shitty and shady dealings.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[gowlerk 2,192]

NTSB final report on the Hinkley crash

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001211X15678&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=MA


It's a pretty damning report to read. It seems to add up to gross negligence.

[AtrusBatleth 0]

stratostar

Well some of those non USPA gm dz’s are not safer, because they were kicked out for ongoing and repeated violations of FARs and BSRs along with bad maintenance practices.

There are also some DZs that dropped out of the GM program merely because it was not worth the additional fee, since most of the alleged services/benefits of being a GM are really benefits that apply to individual members already so there is nothing gained by the DZO. At least that is the reason one DZO told me. Which leads me to a related question: if USPA has revoked GM DZs for repeated violations, where would I go to look that up? Is there a public record of such decisions that jumpers could use to do a DZ "background check"?

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[Ron 10]

Quote

Those DZs that are doing their best to enforce the BSRs and promote a good safety culture are more likely to want to join as a member,

They join because it is advertising. There is zero benefit to signing a pledge to do things. The only benefit is to claim they are approved, and to be listed by the USPA.

Quote

Whereas those DZs that are a bit more sketchy are more likely to not bother.

There are plenty of sketchy DZ's that are USPA Group Members.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,991]

>They join because it is advertising.

And because then it's easier to get staff. And because some DZO's both want to be part of USPA, and change USPA rules to make them more applicable to them.

[Ron 10]

Quote

And because then it's easier to get staff.

Non-GM DZ's don't seem to be having any more of a problem.

Quote

and change USPA rules to make them more applicable to them.

GM DZ's have no special voting rights over just the DZO being a member.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[gowlerk 2,192]

Quote

They join because it is advertising. There is zero benefit to signing a pledge to do things. The only benefit is to claim they are approved, and to be listed by the USPA.

I am going to attack this idea and statement because it is dead wrong. DZOs join USPA because they came up through USPA and they know that supporting USPA is good for the sport. That is the real reason they insist that people who jump at their DZs must be members. Because it is the best thing for the sport and it is the right thing to do.

[chuckakers 425]

AtrusBatleth

I would like it if the rating actually meant something, as in USPA revoking membership for organizational violations....

There have been several revocations since I took a seat on the board in 2016.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

chuckakers

***I would like it if the rating actually meant something, as in USPA revoking membership for organizational violations....

There have been several revocations since I took a seat on the board in 2016.

Also from same poster, different post:

*** if USPA has revoked GM DZs for repeated violations, where would I go to look that up? Is there a public record of such decisions that jumpers could use to do a DZ "background check"?


I know that the detail of disciplinary actions against individual jumpers is kept confidential.
Is disciplinary action against DZs also kept confidential?
Is there any place that it is available to the public? Or even just to USPA members?
It may well be in the meeting minutes, I rarely read them line by line.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Ron 10]

gowlerk

I am going to attack this idea and statement because it is dead wrong.

You a USPA member? You a DZO in the US? You work at a US DZ? You work at a US GM DZ?

In your *opinion* my comment is dead wrong. But I was a USPA member for 20+ years. I have worked at US GM DZ's and US non-GM DZ's. I have talked to DZO's they claim it is just cheap advertising.... 750 bucks a year to be listed in the magazine and on the website is CHEAP advertising.

gowlerk

DZOs join USPA because they came up through USPA and they know that supporting USPA is good for the sport. That is the real reason they insist that people who jump at their DZs must be members.

They insist that people be USPA members for the third party insurance. And the GM program makes them have people join. The real "benefit" is the directing of people from the USPA website and the illusion that a USPA DZ is safer than a non-USPA DZ. Hell, just read the GM manual. The first two things listed as benefits in the GM manual 1-3

https://uspa.org/Portals/0/files/Man_GM.pdf

A.Credentials
1. Use of the authorized phrase, as indicated on the USP
A Group Membership Certificate
Example “Group Member of the United States
Parachute Association” or “Foreign Affiliate of the
United States Parachute Association."

2. Authorization to use the USPA Group Member logo
3.An appropriate and attractive “Certificate
of Membership.”

B. Free advertising
1.A no-cost phone and website listing in issues of
Parachutist magazine.
2.Free listing of DZ events in Parachutist’s Main Events department.
3. A no-cost listing in USPA’s online DZ Directory.
4. An active link from USPA’s website to the DZ’s
website

C. Is a benefit for the USPA.

D. Is a benefit for individual members, not the DZ.

E. Worthless, I have read it. Better info is at Diverdriver.com

F. Maybe worth something to the DZ

G. Now starting to be worth it to the DZ

gowlerk

Because it is the best thing for the sport and it is the right thing to do.

"Best" thing and the "right" thing are just emotional appeals without any data to back the claim up. If this is the best you are going to do..... I am done wasting my time.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Millstone 4]

It seems that nobody on this forum owns a business. The two questions being asked are easy to answer but nobody has hit the mark.
First, the benefits of joining USPA are numerous. USPA gives us a standardized set of procedures for student training, tandems, equipment, aircraft procedures, etc.etc.This allows the individual member to easily assess if a DZ is following industry standards. Moreover, the individual can seamlessly progress in their training from one DZ to another and know exactly what to expect. Our customers greatly appreciate the continuity and professionalism this system offers.
USPA is also a strong lobbying force for our sport and has many successes in protecting our sport from undue government interference.
Second; why does USPA have no "teeth" to enforce their rules?
The answer is, it doesn't need to. In the US at least, our legal system provides all of the motivation, and then some, for DZO's to follow the rules. For example, if your DZ has an incident it will be discovered that you are a group member of USPA who has signed a pledge to follow ALL of the rules. This means if you have broken ANY rules related to your USPA membership, wether it is related to the incident or not, the courts will conclude you have not been following industry standards and you will be found negligent.
Therefor, good business, customer relations, and risk management, are the reasons DZ's sign up for USPA. IT opens us up to a whole slew of extra responsibilities but we do it to provide customers the most transparent, safe, professional, and up to date standards and techniques the industry has to offer.

[chuckakers 425]

wolfriverjoe

******I would like it if the rating actually meant something, as in USPA revoking membership for organizational violations....

There have been several revocations since I took a seat on the board in 2016.

Also from same poster, different post:

*** if USPA has revoked GM DZs for repeated violations, where would I go to look that up? Is there a public record of such decisions that jumpers could use to do a DZ "background check"?


I know that the detail of disciplinary actions against individual jumpers is kept confidential.
Is disciplinary action against DZs also kept confidential?
Is there any place that it is available to the public? Or even just to USPA members?
It may well be in the meeting minutes, I rarely read them line by line.

Per USPA governance, the details of all compliance actions are strictly confidential to protect the identities of the accused, the complainant, and witnesses. Suspensions and revocations are listed in the board meeting minutes available in the "downloads" section on uspa.org.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Westerly 61]

Millstone

The answer is, it doesn't need to. In the US at least, our legal system provides all of the motivation, and then some, for DZO's to follow the rules.

Yea, right, which is why half the DZs out there do unsafe stuff, right? Skydivers have been killed from DZOs who conducted improper/ non-existent aircraft maintenance. Guess what, the companies are still around. Yep, they got sued, but it dident matter. That is what insurance is for. A DZO is not going to care that much if they get sued. Their insurance picks up the tab, not them. I know one DZ in particular that has been sued at least five separate times. They are still in business being doing shady stuff like they always do.

[LeeroyJenkins 3]

Quote

The real "benefit" is the directing of people from the USPA website and the illusion that a USPA DZ is safer than a non-USPA DZ.

This poll shows otherwise.