By their fruits

[RonD1120 62]

I don't know who you are or where you came from but, you just about took all the steam from about 98% of the posters here. And that includes me. Good job!

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[billvon 3,068]

By their fruits shall you know them.

Two years ago, three white Christian terrorists were arrested for planning the bombing of a mosque and nearby apartment complex. Their targets were Somalis living there; if they had been successful they could have killed most of the 120 people living there.

The terrorists were Curtis Allen, Gavin Wright, and Patrick Stein. After being emboldened by Trump's racist and hateful speeches ,they planned on bombing the complex the day after Trump’s inauguration. Fortunately they were stopped by police.

And that's not just my interpretation - it is also their lawyer's. Their terrorism, according to their attorney, was "driven in large measure by the rhetorical China shop bull who is now our president.”

So there you have it. Terrorists are being driven by Trump to commit mass murder - according to the very people representing them.

Congratulations Ron. You must be proud of your president and the fruit he has brought forth.

[JoeWeber 2,822]

motionscribe

*** My atheist friends, well they think I am just wasting my time and setting back the progress of humanity.

Right. I hear it a lot about how we've held back science and progress for all these hundreds of years. But it's easy to see that many are just as ignorant about science as some of the religious folks they like to scoff at, like a bunch of bird-brained parrots pecking at the keyboard trying to stick it to the Christians, or propagate some misguided scientific "fact" to bolster their own disbelief as if that's the sole purpose of science.

So often they confuse cosmology with biology, and evolution with abiogenesis as if it's all just the Theory of Everything, everything but physics. They believe the big bang was an actual explosion.

Most are ignorant of people like Mendel that were instrumental in cementing Darwin's evolutionary theories. Most don't realize that the Church has funded scientific work, not to mention that many, if not most scholars were religious. There is no a priori conflict between being religious and being a scientist. The schism seems to be of a more modern phenomenon which IMO is most likely connected to the rise of secularism.

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Most are ignorant of people like Mendel that were instrumental in cementing Darwin's evolutionary theories. Most don't realize that the Church has funded scientific work, not to mention that many, if not most scholars were religious. There is no a priori conflict between being religious and being a scientist. The schism seems to be of a more modern phenomenon which IMO is most likely connected to the rise of secularism.

The same Church that ordained Mendel tossed Galileo in the can. The reality is that until relatively recently Religion called the shots.

Consequently, statements like "There is no a priori conflict between being religious and being a scientist" need to be explained in context. It does seem to me that, these days, scientists like Francis Collins are rarities compared to secular scientists. Perhaps that is because these days, as funding might come from a wide range of non-church sources, scientists are free to be secular.

[billvon 3,068]

>The same Church that ordained Mendel tossed Galileo in the can.

And executed Giordano Bruno for, among other things, postulating that the stars were different Suns, and could contain planets with life just as our solar system does. This "cosmic pluralism" was heresy at the time, as it suggested that the entire truth of Creation was not in the Bible.

That being said, there is no _inherent_ reason that Christians cannot be good scientists, as long as they can manage to maintain a separation between religious belief and scientific reality. And today's Catholic church accepts evolution, and in general does not interfere with the progress of science as much as it once did.

[JoeWeber 2,822]

motionscribe

*** My atheist friends, well they think I am just wasting my time and setting back the progress of humanity.

Right. I hear it a lot about how we've held back science and progress for all these hundreds of years. But it's easy to see that many are just as ignorant about science as some of the religious folks they like to scoff at, like a bunch of bird-brained parrots pecking at the keyboard trying to stick it to the Christians, or propagate some misguided scientific "fact" to bolster their own disbelief as if that's the sole purpose of science.

So often they confuse cosmology with biology, and evolution with abiogenesis as if it's all just the Theory of Everything, everything but physics. They believe the big bang was an actual explosion.

Most are ignorant of people like Mendel that were instrumental in cementing Darwin's evolutionary theories. Most don't realize that the Church has funded scientific work, not to mention that many, if not most scholars were religious. There is no a priori conflict between being religious and being a scientist. The schism seems to be of a more modern phenomenon which IMO is most likely connected to the rise of secularism.

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So often they confuse cosmology with biology, and evolution with abiogenesis as if it's all just the Theory of Everything, everything but physics. They believe the big bang was an actual explosion.

That sounds smart but I don't know anyone who confuses cosmology with biology or evolution with abiogenesis and then tosses it to a single bag labeled the "Theory of Everything", physics excluded.

Where did you get that from?

[gowlerk 2,249]

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The propensity toward faith is practically in all of us regardless of how hard you want to fight it.

The propensity toward faith is merely how we tend to deal with the underling questions that come with awareness. Awareness of our impending death is only one of the factors. Even without the promise of eternal life, or the threat of eternal suffering, we would search for an understanding of our existence.

Religion happens when one person manages to convince his fellows of an answer. That person is a leader. The leader may or may not actually believe, all that matters is that people follow. It is easier to follow, and it makes for cohesive successful societies. That is why religion has thrived, not because we have a god gene.

Islam will probably eventually become dominant over Christianity. Because it is more efficient at enforcing discipline. Not so much through physical force, but through the shared experience of 5 times daily public prayer, the Haj, and Ramadan. Those things all help to keep the group apart from outsiders and also quickly separate conformers from non conformers.

Christianity had a head start, but Islam is better at keeping it's adherents. Both can be used for good or for evil. It all depends on what the leaders need.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 62]

billvon

Congratulations Ron. You must be proud of your president and the fruit he has brought forth.

As you must be with the deaths of LEOs created by the BLM instigated by the other guy.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[JoeWeber 2,822]

RonD1120

I don't know who you are or where you came from but, you just about took all the steam from about 98% of the posters here. And that includes me. Good job!

Easy, Red Rider. Your Steam-o-meter might need recalibration. Just because something is well written and resonates deeply does not make it true. You know, like the Bible.

"I know you're out there
You're in hiding
And you hold your meetings
I can hear you coming
I know what you're after
We're wise to you this time (wise to you this time)
We won't let you kill the laughter"

[billvon 3,068]

>As you must be with the deaths of LEOs created by the BLM instigated by the other guy.

I must have missed them. Which BLM member killed cops? If that happened (it may have) I'd be against it.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

And exactly when did Obama encourage violence. Trump has done so on multiple occasions.

[DJL 235]

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Millions of Christians and other religious types have been killed for their beliefs as apposed to a handful of witches.

A handful? Never heard of something called the Inquisition, for starters?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt0Y39eMvpI

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[gowlerk 2,249]

billvon

>As you must be with the deaths of LEOs created by the BLM instigated by the other guy.

I must have missed them. Which BLM member killed cops? If that happened (it may have) I'd be against it.

I'm pretty sure he's referring to the event in Dallas and other cop shootings that the perpetrators seemed to be retaliating against LEOs in response to what they perceived as wrong doing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_shooting_of_Dallas_police_officers


Of course, the organization known as BLM had nothing to do with these, the same as Trump had nothing to do with killings by right wingers. It's actually a good point. However, Trump is the leader of a nation. The expectation and the influence he holds is greater. With great power comes great responsibility.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 3,068]

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I'm pretty sure he's referring to the event in Dallas and other cop shootings that the perpetrators seemed to be retaliating against LEOs in response to what they perceived as wrong doing.

OK. But the Dallas event was a veteran who had been discharged for sexual harassment and for hoarding weapons. The police found no links between him and BLM - but did find a large arsenal of weapons and bomb making materials.

You'd be far more accurate blaming veterans and gun nuts for that shooting than blaming BLM for that, since the shooter was in fact a veteran and a gun hoarder.

[tonyhays 86]

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A handful? Never heard of something called the Inquisition, for starters?

Not to mention the holocaust. Anti-semitism was official church doctrine til the 60's.

And there's the prior popes stance on condoms. Aids is bad, but condoms are worse. How many africans did that wind up killing?

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[billvon 3,068]

So there's been a rash of domestic terrorism attacks, especially from white supremacists lately. What is a responsible president to do?

============================
Trump admin will apparently not renew program to fight domestic terror

The Trump administration had already canceled a grant for a group that fights white supremacist terror.

Oct. 31, 2018 / 9:53 AM PDT
By Laura Strickler
AP

WASHINGTON — The Trump administration, which already canceled a grant for a group that fights white supremacist terror, now appears unwilling to renew the anti-domestic terror program under which it was funded, despite recent high-profile attacks like the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting and data showing a spike in attacks on religious minorities.
==============================

I guess he wouldn't want to target his strongest supporters.

[motionscribe 0]

DJL

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Millions of Christians and other religious types have been killed for their beliefs as apposed to a handful of witches.

A handful? Never heard of something called the Inquisition, for starters?

The original quote I was responding to was:

"One of the reasons so many people believe is because in many cases, the skeptics were put to death (for a variety of reasons) while the believers lived on. So any genetic traits that would reinforce belief are passed on. Those that reinforce disobedience towards God or skepticism are not."

While witches, scientists and other skeptics were killed during the inquisition, many more religious people, protestants, muslims, pagans, etc., were also killed. Not to mention the Roman persecution of Christianity, which by wolfriverjoe's logic should have influenced the evolutionary extinction of Christians.

My post was strictly meant to show the absolute absurdity of his claims and his apparent ignorance of how evolution actually works, rather than to get into some meaningless pissing contest about which groups killed more people.

We all should know by now that that title is held by various communist regimes. Regimes that "consistently advocated the control, suppression, and elimination of religious beliefs, and actively encouraged atheism." I think their death toll was somewhere in the 100+ million range, but who's counting?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

motionscribe

***

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Millions of Christians and other religious types have been killed for their beliefs as apposed to a handful of witches.

A handful? Never heard of something called the Inquisition, for starters?

The original quote I was responding to was:

"One of the reasons so many people believe is because in many cases, the skeptics were put to death (for a variety of reasons) while the believers lived on. So any genetic traits that would reinforce belief are passed on. Those that reinforce disobedience towards God or skepticism are not."

While witches, scientists and other skeptics were killed during the inquisition, many more religious people, protestants, Muslims, pagan, etc., were also killed. Not to mention the Roman persecution of Christianity, which by wolfriverjoe's logic should have influenced the evolutionary extinction of Christians.

My post was strictly meant to show the absolute absurdity of his claims and his apparent ignorance of how evolution actually works, rather than to get into some meaningless pissing contest about which groups killed more people.

We all should know by now that that title is held by various communist regimes. Regimes that "consistently advocated the control, suppression, and elimination of religious beliefs, and actively encouraged atheism." I think their death toll was somewhere in the 100+ million range, but who's counting?

As opposed to the absolute absurdity and ignorance shown in your entire post?

I was taught that the Garden of Eden was 'perfection', until Eve ate from the tree of knowledge and introduced death and evil into the world.

OT God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, killed all the first born in Egypt, sent down the ten plagues, and, oh yeah. Killed everyone on earth but Noah and his family. NT God said to love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and on and on.

There were a lot more than 'a handful' of witches killed by the church. Estimates usually run into 6 figures.

Mendel's work was important. Maybe more so than Darwin. But it wasn't recognized until well after his death. The church has funded and supported some scientific research. But it's persecuted and executed scientists who's work contradicts church teachings.
Scholars in the past were almost exclusively religious. But then again so was the entire population. Darwin himself was devout. But his discoveries made him question his faith, and his intellectual integrity made him reject it.
My father was both devout Christian and a scientist (paper chemist, dye specialist). He understood the difference between the two.

Evolution is a wide ranging and complex process. Survival of the fittest is one way of looking at it. Survival of the most adaptable or luckiest are others.

There's a huge range of "nature or nurture" arguments. What traits are learned and what are instinctive (genetic).
Little is proven, much is suspected. Evolutionary psychology is quite new and unproven. But the things it hints at are interesting. None of the info I posted is my own. Nor do I claim it as 'fact'. Just some interesting speculation.

At it's essence, evolution is mutation in individuals. If enough individuals posses a trait, and survive, it gets passed on. Some traits are beneficial, some are not. Some have benefits at one time, but not later. Sickle Cell Anemia is one of those. Other times, bad traits get passed along due to isolation and the strength of other traits. Haemophilia in 19th century European royalty is a good example of this.

It's not 'Christianity' I'm talking about. It's religion in general.

There's a lot of societal benefit to it. Survival of a society means survival of individuals.

The idea that the propensity towards faith is in all of us is true. It's what my point was in the first place.

As I've said previously.
There's lots of very good reasons to believe in God. The fact that none of those reasons require God to actually exist doesn't invalidate those reasons.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[motionscribe 0]

wolfriverjoe

As opposed to the absolute absurdity and ignorance shown in your entire post?

Really, the whole "I know you are, but what am I" approach?

wolfriverjoe

I was taught that the Garden of Eden was 'perfection'

So you blame your teachers for your ignorance? Where does it say that the Garden of Eden was perfect?

wolfriverjoe

OT God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah, killed all the first born in Egypt, sent down the ten plagues, and, oh yeah. Killed everyone on earth but Noah and his family.

You implied that in the OT he was punishing and vengeful, and then in the NT implied that he became loving and caring.

Your confirmation bias has allowed you to overlook the parts in the OT where he was "loving and caring."

I said that I see a punishing, vengeful, loving and caring God throughout all of scripture. If you can't see the parts of the NT where he was, is and/or will be vengeful and punishing, then you're either reading some translation that I've never heard of, or you're placing your faith in ignorant teachers again, and/or your confirmation bias has stuck yet again. . .

wolfriverjoe

There were a lot more than 'a handful' of witches killed by the church. Estimates usually run into 6 figures.

Depending on your bias, the numbers range from 60k to 600k. I will admit that I was originally thinking of Salem when I made that comment, but relatively speaking, even 600k is handful compared to the 100+ million of religious people killed by other religious people and/or communist promoting atheism.

You said that religious people killed the skeptics and that the religious lived on. Clearly many more religious people were killed as well. Your statement about how this influenced evolution in such a short period of time is just ignorant and misguided on multiple levels.

wolfriverjoe

At it's essence, evolution is mutation in individuals. If enough individuals posses a trait, and survive, it gets passed on.

Fine, but not enough time has passed for that to make a meaningful difference. Your suggestion that it has, just shows a complete lack of understanding how evolution really works.

wolfriverjoe

It's not 'Christianity' I'm talking about. It's religion in general.

The idea that the propensity towards faith is in all of us is true. It's what my point was in the first place.

Right, and the witches, scientists and skeptics that were killed had those traits as well. Their faith just manifested in a different way based on their environment. Perhaps they believed in magic, perhaps they had faith in some hypothesis, perhaps they were superstitious. Their deaths wouldn't have made any noticeable difference as far as evolution was concerned, just as the deaths of 100+million religious people didn't.

wolfriverjoe

None of the info I posted is my own. Nor do I claim it as 'fact'. Just some interesting speculation

That much is obvious, not to mention your asinine assumption that the witches and skeptics didn't procreate before they were killed. . .

Maybe next time you'll be more careful when trying to use your misguided and ignorant views of science to bash religion.

[billvon 3,068]

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You implied that in the OT he was punishing and vengeful, and then in the NT implied that he became loving and caring.

On the whole that's true. Look how many crimes get the death penalty in Leviticus; look how many times genocide was commanded overall in the OT vs the NT.

There are, of course, exceptions in each.

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***At it's essence, evolution is mutation in individuals. If enough individuals posses a trait, and survive, it gets passed on.

Fine, but not enough time has passed for that to make a meaningful difference. Your suggestion that it has, just shows a complete lack of understanding how evolution really works.
3.5 billion years isn't enough time? That's 10^11 generations of single celled organisms.

[motionscribe 0]

billvon

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You implied that in the OT he was punishing and vengeful, and then in the NT implied that he became loving and caring.

On the whole that's true. Look how many crimes get the death penalty in Leviticus; look how many times genocide was commanded overall in the OT vs the NT.

Right, but the OT is a much larger book covering a much longer period of time.

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3.5 billion years isn't enough time? That's 10^11 generations of single celled organisms.

You obviously haven't been following the thread.

wolfriverjoe said that the killing or skeptics was enough to influence evolution within several hundred years. . .

[gowlerk 2,249]

Humans are very adaptable. Clearly they do not have an absolute attachment to any one set of myths and fables. They can and do regularly adapt and change, even while claiming to honour past belief. Arguing over the goodness or evilness of someone's god is pointless. All that matters is the good or evil that you do yourself.

Joseph Smith managed to start a very successful belief system, in the USA, from scratch not that long ago. Great evil was done trying to suppress it but it could not be stopped. However, many of it's excesses were modified because EVERY religion will change it's habits and beliefs to fit into the real world.

God is whatever Mankind chooses for Her to be.

All scripture is subject to change.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

motionscribe

You obviously haven't been following the thread.

wolfriverjoe said that the killing of skeptics was enough to influence evolution within several hundred years. . .

Several hundred years?

When did I say that?

Religion has been around for thousands of years. Probably for tens of thousands.

Certainly long enough for evolution to have some influence.

And it wasn't just the killing of skeptics by the religious.

There's also the survival aspect of it.
Following religious dietary laws had a strong survival value back then (hint: more than 'several hundred years' ago).

There's also the societal survival value of it.

If the society doesn't survive, then the likelyhood of individual survival goes down.

The idea of religion having overall value as a survival trait from an evolutionary standpoint covers a lot of different individual traits.
And the value is in a variety of areas.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[DJL 235]

What do you think of the book of Job in which God tortured one of his followers (With Job not knowing who allowed it or did it) just to show that someone would remain faithful through all of that torture?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[RonD1120 62]

DJL

What do you think of the book of Job in which God tortured one of his followers (With Job not knowing who allowed it or did it) just to show that someone would remain faithful through all of that torture?

Job 13:
15 Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.
Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.
16 He also shall be my salvation,
For a hypocrite could not come before Him.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[DJL 235]

RonD1120

***What do you think of the book of Job in which God tortured one of his followers (With Job not knowing who allowed it or did it) just to show that someone would remain faithful through all of that torture?

Job 13:
15 Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.
Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.
16 He also shall be my salvation,
For a hypocrite could not come before Him.

So again, the God who deliberately tortures his subjects, that's your guy? Next, do you take that book literally and think that actually happened.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher