By their fruits

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

***Then I think you might be underestimating the effects of persistent sin in a believers life. It tends to create a lot of confusion, steal their joy and cause them to question their faith, preventing them from experiencing the finer things of Christian life.

Which is 100% irrelevant to what we're talking about.

No, It demonstrates how a Christian can come to a point where their sin put's them in an utter state of despair, guilt and/or confusion among other things and cause them to question "if they genuinely believe."

These are often considered signs of God's discipline.

"My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

"Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness."

"let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the pioneer and perfecter of faith."

So this clearly shows how God cares for believers and what they do. That's what I thought we were talking about.

I thought we already established that I believe we are saved by grace through faith. I also understand that many people have a problem with that. It's probably the oldest and most debated topic even among christian sects. It's probably why Catholicism initially came up with the idea of purgatory and indulgences that eventually led to the reformation.

edited to change "disciple" to "discipline"

[billvon 2,990]

>I thought we already established that I believe we are saved by grace through faith.

Do you also believe that a sincere deathbed conversion will save you?

[motionscribe 0]

billvon

>I thought we already established that I believe we are saved by grace through faith.

Do you also believe that a sincere deathbed conversion will save you?

If we're saved by grace then I don't see why the time and place would matter, unless of course there is some deadline that I don't know about other than death.

[jakee 1,489]

motionscribe

******Then I think you might be underestimating the effects of persistent sin in a believers life. It tends to create a lot of confusion, steal their joy and cause them to question their faith, preventing them from experiencing the finer things of Christian life.

Which is 100% irrelevant to what we're talking about.

No, It demonstrates how a Christian can come to a point where their sin put's them in an utter state of despair, guilt and/or confusion among other things and cause them to question "if they genuinely believe."

These are often considered signs of God's discipline.

I'm sure they can do that. But equally they can not do that, and carry on both being horrible and believing in Jesus quite happily.

Why does God only care what some people do?

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I thought we already established that I believe we are saved by grace through faith.

Yes, exactly - which means god doesn't care what you do, you can be saved regardless.

And I asked you about that - most people of that opinion say you need to be saved by faith because simply existing in the real world is such a terrible sin that nothing good you do could ever balance it out, from god's point of view you're basically just sinning with every waking moment (probably while dreaming too- what do you think?). But you're now saying it is possible for god to balance the good and bad things you do and reward you appropriately... so why the arbitrary requirement for belief?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DJL 235]

Your logic is like not being concerned with guns and bullets until one is pointed at you and you are really sorry that you're now in a situation where you might get shot.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,990]

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If we're saved by grace then I don't see why the time and place would matter

But you just said "Repentance and living a life that produces "good fruit" is evidence that your faith is sincere and have actually been redeemed."

So is it important to have a life that produces "good fruit" - or does how you live your life not matter as long as you convert before the moment of death?

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

*** It demonstrates how a Christian can come to a point where their sin put's them in an utter state of despair, guilt and/or confusion among other things and cause them to question "if they genuinely believe."

These are often considered signs of God's discipline.

I'm sure they can do that. But equally they can not do that, and carry on both being horrible and believing in Jesus quite happily. Why does God only care what some people do?

I don't buy that. Even the scripture I quoted explicitly states that he "chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

Now how that takes place in every instance of each believer's life, I don't know. I don't know what their issues may be or how God is working in their lives. It's a very personal thing between that person and God, so YMMV depending on a number of factors. "To whom much is given, from him much is expected"

jakee

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I thought we already established that I believe we are saved by grace through faith.

Yes, exactly - which means god doesn't care what you do, you can be saved regardless.

And I asked you about that - most people of that opinion say you need to be saved by faith because simply existing in the real world is such a terrible sin that nothing good you do could ever balance it out, from god's point of view you're basically just sinning with every waking moment (probably while dreaming too- what do you think?)But you're now saying it is possible for god to balance the good and bad things you do and reward you appropriately... so why the arbitrary requirement for belief?

We were talking about rewards for believers after they've already been saved and given spiritual life that is now capable of actually producing "spiritual fruit."

It should also be noted that just because a Christian does something that they think is good, doesn't necessarily mean it's spiritual. For example, it they give to the homeless, but the reason for doing so was completely self serving, then they shouldn't expect to be rewarded for it. In this instance it was more likely an "act of the flesh." Perhaps they just wanted recognition or feel better about some sin in their life.

[motionscribe 0]

DJL

Your logic is like not being concerned with guns and bullets until one is pointed at you and you are really sorry that you're now in a situation where you might get shot.

I don't know, it seems that would that be more analogous to an atheist coming face to face with God after they've died.

[motionscribe 0]

billvon

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If we're saved by grace then I don't see why the time and place would matter

But you just said "Repentance and living a life that produces "good fruit" is evidence that your faith is sincere and have actually been redeemed."

As Jakee and Ron pointed out, God knows your heart, so it seems the only practical use for that evidence would be for the believer to know they are on the right path and/or identify possible false teachers as you've mentioned in the OP.

It's not like after being saved you then need to present a basket of fruit. That would negate the idea of grace, right?

And just because someone converts on their deathbed doesn't mean they can't produce fruit. Perhaps they find themselves at peace. They may experience joy, and if time permitting, show forbearance /forgiveness regarding various family legal issues, rather than dying in spite and needlessly allowing the effects of their bad fruit to continue on long after they're dead.

[billvon 2,990]

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And just because someone converts on their deathbed doesn't mean they can't produce fruit. Perhaps they find themselves at peace. They may experience joy, and if time permitting, show forbearance /forgiveness regarding various family legal issues, rather than dying in spite and needlessly allowing the effects of their bad fruit to continue on long after they're dead.

OK. So a personal feeling of peace or joy is sufficient to produce those lifetime "good fruits" you were discussing above. (I was talking about a deathbed conversion, not a conversion while the person still has time to redo their will, reconcile with their family etc.)

In other words, as long as Osama Bin Laden is at peace when he dies, at least he has lived a life characterized by good fruits.

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It's not like after being saved you then need to present a basket of fruit.

That phrase came from the Bible, specifically from Matthew.

Matthew 7: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. . . .Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

They are not saying that false prophets (or real ones) give you baskets of fruit. They are saying that you will know the real prophets by the work they do; that is an analogy to the fruit that a fruit tree bears. A thorny bush can claim to be an apple tree - but by what it makes during its lifetime you will discover the truth.

And again, that goes somewhat against the idea that as long as you have at least an instant of "approved belief" (i.e. accepting Jesus as your personal savoir, or accepting the Trinity, or whatever a particular sect of Christianity thinks is worthwhile) you are cleared of all your previous sin. To use the Matthew 7 analogy, even if you produced nothing but thorns all your life, as long as you say you are an apple tree just before you die, you're an apple tree.

[jakee 1,489]

motionscribe

****** It demonstrates how a Christian can come to a point where their sin put's them in an utter state of despair, guilt and/or confusion among other things and cause them to question "if they genuinely believe."

These are often considered signs of God's discipline.

I'm sure they can do that. But equally they can not do that, and carry on both being horrible and believing in Jesus quite happily. Why does God only care what some people do?

I don't buy that. Even the scripture I quoted explicitly states that he "chastens everyone he accepts as his son."

So you want to restate what you said as 'It demonstrates how a Christian will always come to a point where their sin put's them in an utter state of despair, guilt and/or confusion among other things and cause them to question "if they genuinely believe."'

Because you know that's not true. You know there are people who genuinely believe in god, yet keep doing horrible things and are quite happy with how their life is going.

Unless you think it's possible for someone to genuinely believe they believe, but not really believe? But if that's possible, the whole salvation thing just becomes a gamble anyway.

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We were talking about rewards for believers after they've already been saved and given spiritual life that is now capable of actually producing "spiritual fruit."

It should also be noted that just because a Christian does something that they think is good, doesn't necessarily mean it's spiritual. For example, it they give to the homeless, but the reason for doing so was completely self serving, then they shouldn't expect to be rewarded for it. In this instance it was more likely an "act of the flesh." Perhaps they just wanted recognition or feel better about some sin in their life.

Well now you've got the whole thing backwards.

You're saying the saved christian can be rewarded for doing good deeds - therefore the saved Christians good deeds are self serving, whther he wants it to be or not.

But if the unsaved non-christian cannot be rewarded for his good deeds then he is being truly selfless.

So hoestly, you've just said it again - God doesn't care if you do anything good. If you don't believe, then it doesn't mean anything because you're not saved, if you do believe then it doesn't mean anything because it's ultimately a self serving act and the believer knows that. So what difference does it make?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[motionscribe 0]

billvon

They are not saying that false prophets (or real ones) give you baskets of fruit.

I was simply saying that having to present to God a basket of fruit in order to get into heaven after being saved by grace is not grace at all.

billvon

They are saying that you will know the real prophets by the work they do; that is an analogy to the fruit that a fruit tree bears. A thorny bush can claim to be an apple tree - but by what it makes during its lifetime you will discover the truth.

And again, that goes somewhat against the idea that as long as you have at least an instant of "approved belief" (i.e. accepting Jesus as your personal savoir, or accepting the Trinity, or whatever a particular sect of Christianity thinks is worthwhile) you are cleared of all your previous sin.

Ok, so you're extending that verse to supposed believers. If a Prophet doesn't produce any spiritual fruit, then they are false prophets. If a believer doesn't produce any spiritual fruit, what does that make them?

Now you can say that the deathbed guy didn't produce any spiritual fruit either, therefore he's a false believer, but he never got the chance to show you, so how do you know?

If his conversion was the same as a sincere true believer that produced spiritual fruit, then he would've produced spiritual fruit as well, right?

billvon

To use the Matthew 7 analogy, even if you produced nothing but thorns all your life, as long as you say you are an apple tree just before you die, you're an apple tree.

Aren't we all thorn bushes until God turns us into an apple tree? In the case of the deathbed apple tree guy, he didn't have enough time to produce fruit so we'll never know in this life. It's between him and God, and I'm pretty sure God knows if he turned him into an apple tree or not. . .

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

So you want to restate what you said as 'It demonstrates how a Christian will always come to a point where their sin put's them in an utter state of despair, guilt and/or confusion among other things and cause them to question "if they genuinely believe."'

Because you know that's not true.

Right, not every believer is going to be disciplined to the point of questioning their faith, but we know that every believer will be chastened. There is always room for improvement.

jakee

You know there are people who genuinely believe in god, yet keep doing horrible things and are quite happy with how their life is going.

First, we know mere belief in God doesn't really mean anything wrt to what we're actually talking about, but I know that's not what you meant, so no point in changing the subject.

But seriously, how can you possibly know that they are happy?

And not that it's really any of my business, (unless they are personally held accountable to me) but how can you know that someone really believes if they just keep on living the same sinful life unchecked as if nothing ever changed?

How can you say that you struggle with Christians joining the military and going to war, but not struggle with how a christian can show no evidence of producing any spiritual fruit whatsoever?

jakee

Quote

We were talking about rewards for believers after they've already been saved and given spiritual life that is now capable of actually producing "spiritual fruit."

It should also be noted that just because a Christian does something that they think is good, doesn't necessarily mean it's spiritual. For example, it they give to the homeless, but the reason for doing so was completely self serving, then they shouldn't expect to be rewarded for it. In this instance it was more likely an "act of the flesh." Perhaps they just wanted recognition or feel better about some sin in their life.

Well now you've got the whole thing backwards.

You're saying the saved christian can be rewarded for doing good deeds - therefore the saved Christians good deeds are self serving, whther he wants it to be or not.

Actually, if the saved christian can suppress his sinful nature to allow God's spirit to work through him, then he will be rewarded whether he knows it or not.

jakee

But if the unsaved non-christian cannot be rewarded for his good deeds then he is being truly selfless.

No, I'm saying that the supposed "good deeds" of both the saved and unsaved will not be rewarded because they are completely self serving "acts of the flesh," not "fruit of the spirit"

jakee

So hoestly, you've just said it again - God doesn't care if you do anything good. If you don't believe, then it doesn't mean anything because you're not saved.

There is no good unless God is working through you.

jakee

if you do believe then it doesn't mean anything because it's ultimately a self serving act and the believer knows that.

Having a relationship with God is a two-way street. It's ok that there are benefits.

But seriously, if you've ever experienced a conversion where you are truly penitent and completely broken by your sin, the last thing on your mind at that precise moment is, "what's in it for me."

[jakee 1,489]

motionscribe

***So you want to restate what you said as 'It demonstrates how a Christian will always come to a point where their sin put's them in an utter state of despair, guilt and/or confusion among other things and cause them to question "if they genuinely believe."'

Because you know that's not true.

Right, not every believer is going to be disciplined to the point of questioning their faith, but we know that every believer will be chastened. There is always room for improvement.

But again, you know that there are people who believe in Jesus, do horrible things, and are totally happy.

In what meaningful way are they 'chastened' compared to someone who's driven to utter despair? It still sounds like wildly dfferent treatment for different people for no particular reason.

jakee

You know there are people who genuinely believe in god, yet keep doing horrible things and are quite happy with how their life is going.

Quote

How can you say that you struggle with Christians joining the military and going to war, but not struggle with how a christian can show no evidence of producing any spiritual fruit whatsoever?

I misspoke. I struggle to see how any genuine christian can claim that joining the military is right. I don't struggle with people saying one thing and doing another. That's just part of how our brains are wired, unfortunately.

Quote

Actually, if the saved christian can suppress his sinful nature to allow God's spirit to work through him, then he will be rewarded whether he knows it or not.

But he does know it, and he will be rewarded regardless - so ultimately it is self serving. Even if a believer didn't think he'd be rewarded for doing something good, he'll think he's going to heaven for eternity so he's never really sacrificing anything.

Now, how come only the saved christian can suppress his sinful nature but the un-believer can't if the result is the same action and the sam benefit for other people?

Quote

No, I'm saying that the supposed "good deeds" of both the saved and unsaved will not be rewarded because they are completely self serving "acts of the flesh," not "fruit of the spirit"

That's utter unadulterated tautological bullshit.

Take the case of a person who, let's say, dies shielding someone else's baby in one of your mass shootings. You're saying that if it's an un-believer who gave up what he thinks is his one and only existence on this earth, or any other plane of reality, that's a self serving act that is unworty of reward?

But if it's a saved Christian who's convinced he's going to heaven anyway, and who thinks doing good works will make heaven even better for him, that makes it a selfless act that is worth rewarding?

That's a despicable value system, frankly. And really does sound like just another way of saying that god is an amoral master who absolutely does not care what people do to each other.

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There is no good unless God is working through you.

Is the mother from the above example any less happy if a non-christian saves her baby than if a christian does it? Any less grateful? Of course not.

So, you've just conclusively demonstrated that you don't think 'good' has anything whatsoever to do with what you do to other people or how you make them feel.

So what is 'good'?

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But seriously, if you've ever experienced a conversion where you are truly penitent and completely broken by your sin, the last thing on your mind at that precise moment is, "what's in it for me."

And yet it's all you guys ever talk about.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

But again, you know that there are people who believe in Jesus, do horrible things, and are totally happy.

Do I? How do you know? How do you know they really believe in Jesus? How do you know they are really happy?

jakee

In what meaningful way are they 'chastened' compared to someone who's driven to utter despair? It still sounds like wildly dfferent treatment for different people for no particular reason.

Like I said, I don't know how God works in every believers life in every situation. There are too many variables to know it all. All I know is that according to scripture, he does. We're all at different places in our spiritual life experiencing different cultures and needs, but "To whom much is given, much is expected."

jakee

Take the case of a person who, let's say, dies shielding someone else's baby in one of your mass shootings. You're saying that if it's an un-believer who gave up what he thinks is his one and only existence on this earth, or any other plane of reality, that's a self serving act that is unworty of reward?

Is that a thing? Does that really happen? How do you know what his motives were? Maybe it's like JDL said and he has a change of heart when faced with death? At the end of the day, your most likely scientific explanation is that it was just pure instinct thanks to your god of evolution. He died, she lived, she'll die, everyone will forget and it won't make one damn bit of difference, will it? Would he have shielded a grown man? If so, how could you possibly know why?

jakee

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But seriously, if you've ever experienced a conversion where you are truly penitent and completely broken by your sin, the last thing on your mind at that precise moment is, "what's in it for me."

And yet it's all you guys ever talk about.

Not sure about all that, but it does make sense if we're trying to appeal to self-centered humanity.

[jakee 1,489]

motionscribe

***Take the case of a person who, let's say, dies shielding someone else's baby in one of your mass shootings. You're saying that if it's an un-believer who gave up what he thinks is his one and only existence on this earth, or any other plane of reality, that's a self serving act that is unworty of reward?

Is that a thing? Does that really happen?
Of course it happens. The specific scenario is to make it easier to picture, but consider the general principle - are you seriously doubting that anyone who isn't a saved christian has ever sacrificed their life to save a stranger?

Is that the depth you have to stoop to in order to try and support your argument?

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How do you know what his motives were?

How do you?

You said that the motive of that person was completely self serving. You need to explain how the sacrifice of someone's entire and only existence can be a selfish act.

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He died, she lived, she'll die, everyone will forget and it won't make one damn bit of difference, will it?

So again, you need to answer the question, what is 'good'?

If good deeds aren't 'good', even to the point where sacrificing your life to save someone else isn't 'good', then what is? If making other people happy with that sacrifice isn't 'good', then what is?

If there is no action, no outcome, no intention possible that can ever be seen as objectively 'good', then what is it?

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Not sure about all that, but it does make sense if we're trying to appeal to self-centered humanity.

Since you've denied any moral basis to appeal with what do you have left to offer except the self serving aspect of 'belief leads to reward'?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

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He died, she lived, she'll die, everyone will forget and it won't make one damn bit of difference, will it?

So again, you need to answer the question, what is 'good'

Tho we don't, and can never know his motives, we as a society will herald him a hero, and that's fine, I get it.

But let's face it, it would most likely be due to pure instinct. There is nothing spiritual about that whether he was a believer or not.

So what is good? When you look at it from afar, you see a society that is reaping what it sowed. We have a man that had to sacrifice his life so that a baby wouldn't get shot.

What is good is to never have that happen if the first place. So by what means do we get there other than standing ankle deep in water shouting at the tide?

[jakee 1,489]

motionscribe

***

Quote

He died, she lived, she'll die, everyone will forget and it won't make one damn bit of difference, will it?

So again, you need to answer the question, what is 'good'

Tho we don't, and can never know his motives, we as a society will herald him a hero, and that's fine, I get it.

Has he done a good thing? Is it good that a child is kept alive? Is it good that the parents can see their baby grow up instead of burying it?

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So what is good? When you look at it from afar, you see a society that is reaping what it sowed. We have a man that had to sacrifice his life so that a baby wouldn't get shot.

Haha

Ok, posit a situation where someone's life is saved when the danger does not come from an evil human source. Like, say, a person who dies trying to save others from a non-arson related California wildfire? Is that 'good'?

A nurse or doctor who goes to an area affected by a virulent disease outbreak and in the process is infected and dies. Was that not 'good'?

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What is good is to never have that happen if the first place.

OK, so your direct answer to my direct question is that there is no such thing as a good deed, either in action or in outcome. So, once again, in what way does god care what you do if nothing you can do is good?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 62]

I was thinking about y'all's conversation while reading Marvin Rosenthal in Zion's Fire. It appears to me that the following quote would benefit you.

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Satan has an Antichrist, a false prophet, demons, fallen angels, counterfeit religionists, corrupt governments, pagans, idolaters, wicked and godless men - an army of immense size and power - at his beck and call.

The majority of the aforementioned believe in God. They also believe they are powerful enough to beat Him.

So when you attempt to judge someone you really have no idea which category they fit. That is, are they Christian or of the others?

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,489]

RonD1120

I was thinking about y'all's conversation while reading Marvin Rosenthal in Zion's Fire. It appears to me that the following quote would benefit you.

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Satan has an Antichrist, a false prophet, demons, fallen angels, counterfeit religionists, corrupt governments, pagans, idolaters, wicked and godless men - an army of immense size and power - at his beck and call.

The majority of the aforementioned believe in God. They also believe they are powerful enough to beat Him.

Satan, the Antichrist, demons and fallen angels wouldn't believe in god anymore than you or I believe in our parents. Rather, we know them. I can pretty much guarantee that if we go down this road you will end up claiming that absolute knowledge is antithetical to belief, so lets just cut out that bit and agree that talking about demons and talking about people is not the same thing.

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So when you attempt to judge someone you really have no idea which category they fit. That is, are they Christian or of the others?

You believe in God but claim there is no spiritual value in doing good works.

Whose side do you think you're on?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,990]

>That is, are they Christian or of the others?

Or - are they Christian AND one of those corrupt and wicked men?

Anders Breivik was certainly a Christian. Even talked of going to a martyr's mass at a local church before he began his killing spree. He was also a xenophobe and mass murderer.

I would be careful of dividing the world like that - because if you do, you may one day find out that that Christian you were certain about is closer to Breivik than you expect.

[RonD1120 62]

billvon

>That is, are they Christian or of the others?

Or - are they Christian AND one of those corrupt and wicked men?

Anders Breivik was certainly a Christian. Even talked of going to a martyr's mass at a local church before he began his killing spree. He was also a xenophobe and mass murderer.

I would be careful of dividing the world like that - because if you do, you may one day find out that that Christian you were certain about is closer to Breivik than you expect.

They could be simply emissaries of Satan and lying to give Christians a bad name. Satan is the father of lies you know. He comes to steal, kill and, destroy.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Phil1111 1,149]

RonD1120

***>That is, are they Christian or of the others?

Or - are they Christian AND one of those corrupt and wicked men?

Anders Breivik was certainly a Christian. Even talked of going to a martyr's mass at a local church before he began his killing spree. He was also a xenophobe and mass murderer.

I would be careful of dividing the world like that - because if you do, you may one day find out that that Christian you were certain about is closer to Breivik than you expect.

They could be simply emissaries of Satan/trump and lying to give Christians a bad name. Satan/trump is the father of lies you know. He comes to steal, kill and, destroy.

From: Premier Christianity

Trump's tweets are full of lies, deception and distortion. And they're hurting our democracy
https://www.premierchristianity.com/Past-Issues/2018/April-2018/Trump-s-tweets-are-full-of-lies-deception-and-distortion.-And-they-re-hurting-our-democracy

Can evangelicalism survive in the age of Trump?
https://www.premierchristianity.com/Blog/Can-evangelicalism-survive-in-the-age-of-Trump

Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates Are Starving Yemenis to Death
https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/11/08/saudi-arabia-and-the-united-arab-emirates-are-starving-yemenis-to-death-mbs-khashoggi-famine-yemen-blockade-houthis/

The United States Could End the War in Yemen If It Wanted To
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/09/iran-yemen-saudi-arabia/571465/

Donald Trump is quietly escalating America’s role in the Saudi-led war on Yemen, disregarding the huge humanitarian toll and voices in Congress that are trying to rein in the Pentagon’s involvement. Trump administration officials are considering a request from Saudi Arabia and its ally, the United Arab Emirates, for direct US military help to retake Yemen’s main port from Houthi rebels. The Hodeidah port is a major conduit for humanitarian aid in Yemen, and a prolonged battle could be catastrophic for millions of civilians who depend on already limited aid.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/11/trump-yemen-saudi-arabi-war-us-involvement-worsening-crisis

It seems as if the blame for 85,000 dead children in Yemen. Should be placed on trump. Together with those who aid and support the trump-Saudi proxy war with Iran.

[billvon 2,990]

>They could be simply emissaries of Satan and lying to give Christians a bad name.

So Pope Urban II was just an 'emissary of Satan' when he called on all Christians to go and kill Muslims?

That's some very heavy duty rationalization you've got going on there.

>Satan is the father of lies you know. He comes to steal, kill and, destroy.

So did all four Crusades and the Inquisition. And all the priests who molested little boys did a lot of destruction. Does that mean that God is sometimes Satan? Or are you going to have to define all of that as "not Christian?" Do enough of that and you'll have some pretty serious cognitive dissonance to manage.

[tonyhays 86]

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Or are you going to have to define all of that as "not Christian?"

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”