By their fruits

[jakee 1,489]

motionscribe

Ok, so do you believe me? If so, would I not then try to explain the Greek passages as well to the best of my ability if they needed any additional explanation?

Lets be honest - you haven't shown any inclination to clarify your positions so far.

But ok then, so the stuff that you've posted means exactly what it says, yeah? So this:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Means that no one who has ever done any of that stuff will get into heaven?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,489]

DJL

*********I don't know, it seems that would that be more analogous to an atheist coming face to face with God after they've died.

Ah...so the trick is being sorry just before you die, I'll try to remember that.

So your logic is that you can trick God?

Your logic is that God is so conceited that at the moment of death he goes "Gotcha! You're going to hell!" As if there's any reason that your version of the afterlife is more convincing than the the various beliefs that the other 67% of the world population follow?

Exactly.

'Cos if I died and came face to face with god then I'd instantly believe. In which case me and god would be cool and nothing that happened when I was alive would matter either way, right?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

***Ok, so do you believe me? If so, would I not then try to explain the Greek passages as well to the best of my ability if they needed any additional explanation?

Lets be honest - you haven't shown any inclination to clarify your positions so far.

But ok then, so the stuff that you've posted means exactly what it says, yeah? So this:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Means that no one who has ever done any of that stuff will get into heaven?

That quote was given to show you how God cares.

Now, like always, you want to go off on another tangent, and that's fine. I don't mind.

The answer is no, but you'll have to delve in the context to understand. . .

[jakee 1,489]

motionscribe

******Ok, so do you believe me? If so, would I not then try to explain the Greek passages as well to the best of my ability if they needed any additional explanation?

Lets be honest - you haven't shown any inclination to clarify your positions so far.

But ok then, so the stuff that you've posted means exactly what it says, yeah? So this:

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

Means that no one who has ever done any of that stuff will get into heaven?

That quote was given to show you how God cares.

Now, like always, you want to go off on another tangent, and that's fine. I don't mind.

Lol, what? If the quote is not true, and the people who do those things can get into the kingdom of heaven, then how does it demonstrate that god cares what we do?

Finding out whether or not your quotes have any meaning is not a tangent, it's fundamental to finding out if they answer the question.

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The answer is no, but you'll have to delve in the context to understand. . .

So it's not clear and it doesn't mean what it says it means.

Last post you asked me if I believed you that it's clear and should be taken at face value, and said you'd have explained the context if it was neccesary. This post you've basically admitted you were lying about it being clear, and it is neccesary to look at the context to know what it says.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[motionscribe 0]

and now the context is necessary.

Didn't think it was really that hard to understand. I guess it's right when Ron talks about needing the Holy Spirit to understand.

Or are you just playing dumb?

[jakee 1,489]

motionscribe

and now the context is necessary.

So what is the context? Since you're now claiming the passage above doesn't mean what it says (straight after claiming it does mean what it says), what does it actually mean?

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Didn't think it was really that hard to understand. I guess it's right when Ron talks about needing the Holy Spirit to understand.

If the holy spirit is telling you that this passage "Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." really means that the sexually immoral will inherit the kingdom of god, thieves will inherit the kingdom of god, greedy people, drunkards, revilers and swindlers will inherit the kingdom of god then yes, it sounds like you do need the holy spirit (or some strong spirits) to understand it.

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Or are you just playing dumb?

Don't get snippy because you were caught lying. That's your fault, not mine.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[DJL 235]

jakee

************I don't know, it seems that would that be more analogous to an atheist coming face to face with God after they've died.

Ah...so the trick is being sorry just before you die, I'll try to remember that.

So your logic is that you can trick God?

Your logic is that God is so conceited that at the moment of death he goes "Gotcha! You're going to hell!" As if there's any reason that your version of the afterlife is more convincing than the the various beliefs that the other 67% of the world population follow?

Exactly.

'Cos if I died and came face to face with god then I'd instantly believe. In which case me and god would be cool and nothing that happened when I was alive would matter either way, right?

Take, for example, the tribesmen on that Indian Ocean island who killed the guy attempting to bring Christianity to them. They literally denied Christ but had no idea what they were doing. So, do they go to hell when they're presented for judgement? Does that even matter to God because if it didn't then human souls are empty shells that he has no problem flinging into the fire simply because of the where they arbitrarily were born. Now, I know Christians have a snappy comeback to this one so let's listen closely. It'll go something along the lines that people know of God instinctively because God puts that knowledge in the their minds and hearts. Never mind that despite this there has never been a Christian-Judeo group that spontaneously arose as a result of this imbued understanding of God's existence. Step two of the response is that God reveals himself at the moment of death and we'll just have to ignore the entirely unprovable and speculative roots of that claim.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[billvon 2,990]

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Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

On the plus side, lesbians have an in.

[kallend 2,026]

motionscribe

That's only because you selectively quote the points that support your preconceptions and ignore those that don't.

.

Irony score 10/10, right up there with Ron.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

***and now the context is necessary.

So what is the context? Since you're now claiming the passage above doesn't mean what it says (straight after claiming it does mean what it says), what does it actually mean?

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Didn't think it was really that hard to understand. I guess it's right when Ron talks about needing the Holy Spirit to understand.

If the holy spirit is telling you that this passage "Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." really means that the sexually immoral will inherit the kingdom of god, thieves will inherit the kingdom of god, greedy people, drunkards, revilers and swindlers will inherit the kingdom of god then yes, it sounds like you do need the holy spirit (or some strong spirits) to understand it.

Paul was talking to Corinthian converts. Most all of them would've likely came from a similar background.

There was an instance where they were celebrating their tolerance of some guy that slept with his stepmother. They were partying and getting drunk while others were starving at the church.

Pual exclaimed, "WHAT?"

The point is that if you have the Spirit of God, you wouldn't boast of such evil. You would see sin for what it is and repent. Even if you sinned, you wouldn't boast about it, and you certainly wouldn't encourage others to do the same. . .

If after supposedly becoming a christian you continue in the same lifestyle as if nothing ever changed then perhaps nothing ever changed. Why is that so hard to understand?

[jakee 1,489]

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Paul was talking to Corinthian converts. Most all of them would've likely came from a similar background.

There was an instance where they were celebrating their tolerance of some guy that slept with his stepmother. They were partying and getting drunk while others were starving at the church.

Pual exclaimed, "WHAT?"

The point is that if you have the Spirit of God, you wouldn't boast of such evil. You would see sin for what it is and repent. Even if you sinned, you wouldn't boast about it, and you certainly wouldn't encourage others to do the same. . .

Right, so when you told me the passage absolutely means what it says with no other context necessary you were lying. If you want people to understand you, it's best not to intentionally deceive them.

Plus, that's Paul. Correct me if I'm wrong but the disciples weren't prophets, right? Paul is just giving his opinion, not speaking with the voice of god.

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If after supposedly becoming a christian you continue in the same lifestyle as if nothing ever changed then perhaps nothing ever changed. Why is that so hard to understand?

I absolutely, 100% understand what the word 'perhaps' means. Perhaps nothing changed, but perhaps it did, regardless of how you behave. Sounds like you agree with me now?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

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Paul was talking to Corinthian converts. Most all of them would've likely came from a similar background.

There was an instance where they were celebrating their tolerance of some guy that slept with his stepmother. They were partying and getting drunk while others were starving at the church.

Pual exclaimed, "WHAT?"

The point is that if you have the Spirit of God, you wouldn't boast of such evil. You would see sin for what it is and repent. Even if you sinned, you wouldn't boast about it, and you certainly wouldn't encourage others to do the same. . .

Right, so when you told me the passage absolutely means what it says with no other context necessary you were lying. If you want people to understand you, it's best not to intentionally deceive them.

I don't recall that. Perhaps you could refresh my memory?

jakee

Plus, that's Paul. Correct me if I'm wrong but the disciples weren't prophets, right? Paul is just giving his opinion, not speaking with the voice of god.

He's part of the story whether you like it or not. . .

jakee

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If after supposedly becoming a christian you continue in the same lifestyle as if nothing ever changed then perhaps nothing ever changed. Why is that so hard to understand?

I absolutely, 100% understand what the word 'perhaps' means. Perhaps nothing changed, but perhaps it did, regardless of how you behave. Sounds like you agree with me now?

Oh for fuck's sake dude, of course I can't be 100% sure. I'm not God. . .

[jakee 1,489]

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I don't recall that. Perhaps you could refresh my memory?

"You need to look no further than the scripture that I've quoted... What I posted was rather clear.... Ok, so do you believe me? If so, would I not then try to explain the Greek passages as well to the best of my ability if they needed any additional explanation?"

You have a very bad memory.

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He's part of the story whether you like it or not. . .

Sure he's part of the story. But does that mean that he's infallible? Was Paul a perfect man who never said anything wrong, and who spoke with the authority of god?

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Oh for fuck's sake dude, of course I can't be 100% sure.

'Perhaps' conveys a level of far less than 100% certainty. So again, 'perhaps' someone who is saved by his genuine belief in Jesus will act differently, but perhaps they won't. It really does sound like you're agreeng with what I've been saying all along.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[RonD1120 62]

Cyberspace IMO is a spiritual realm and as such you will encounter demonic spirits. They cannot be reasoned with but you can learn from them. Your expanded knowledge of the spiritual world will thus benefit you in the physical realm.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[jakee 1,489]

RonD1120

Cyberspace IMO is a spiritual realm...

Bit axiomatic, no?

If spirit exists, is there part of the human experience that isn't a spiritual realm?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[gowlerk 2,190]

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Oh for fuck's sake dude, of course I can't be 100% sure. I'm not God. . .

Doubting Thomas.....

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[RonD1120 62]

jakee

***Cyberspace IMO is a spiritual realm...

Bit axiomatic, no?

If spirit exists, is there part of the human experience that isn't a spiritual realm?

Human beings have a spirit, live in a body and have a soul.

Most folks relate to their bodies. I relate to my spirit that simply lives in a body. Christians, true believers that is, seek to unite their spirit and soul with God in heaven. The gateway is through Jesus the Christ.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[gowlerk 2,190]

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Human beings have a spirit, live in a body and have a soul.

Does that mean I will not be reunited with my beloved childhood dog in Heaven? Screw it then, I'll meet up with all my friends in Hell.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jakee 1,489]

RonD1120

******Cyberspace IMO is a spiritual realm...

Bit axiomatic, no?

If spirit exists, is there part of the human experience that isn't a spiritual realm?

Human beings have a spirit, live in a body and have a soul.

Most folks relate to their bodies. I relate to my spirit that simply lives in a body. Christians, true believers that is, seek to unite their spirit and soul with God in heaven. The gateway is through Jesus the Christ.

And Jesus lives in the internet now?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[normiss 798]

I'm bringing beer.

[billvon 2,990]

>Does that mean I will not be reunited with my beloved childhood dog in Heaven?

https://imgur.com/gallery/o6jDtIa

[Rick 67]

that is hilarious

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

****** so when you told me the passage absolutely means what it says with no other context necessary you were lying. If you want people to understand you, it's best not to intentionally deceive them.

I don't recall that. Perhaps you could refresh my memory?

"You need to look no further than the scripture that I've quoted... What I posted was rather clear.... Ok, so do you believe me? If so, would I not then try to explain the Greek passages as well to the best of my ability if they needed any additional explanation?"

It was clear in the sense that it shows a standard for Christian behavior, which is what we were talking about.

There seems to be this idea that Christ died so that we can sin. I find such ideas offensive and completely falls short of the mark.

jakee

You have a very bad memory.

I know, right? I have a very hard time remembering things I didn't do. I guess I'm just weird like that.

jakee

'Perhaps' conveys a level of far less than 100% certainty. So again, 'perhaps' someone who is saved by his genuine belief in Jesus will act differently, but perhaps they won't. It really does sound like you're agreeng with what I've been saying all along.

If there is absolutely no change in a persons life and they merely use God's Grace as an excuse to sin without any conviction whatsoever, then I can state with great confidence that they're probably not a christian. "Faith without works is dead."

I would not feel comfortable passing judgement on someone in this regard, because I don't know and it's not my job. Generally speaking, it's up to that person to examine themselves and it's up to God to judge.

That's the best I can do and can offer no absolute as it seems to limit God. "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." I suppose it's his prerogative to save whoever he wanted regardless of their faith, but I wouldn't count on it.

IIRC, there will be 144,000 Jews that will be saved without having faith in Christ prior to seeing God and finally knowing the truth. But don't take my word for that as I need to reexamine that part of scripture.

[jakee 1,489]

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It was clear in the sense that it shows a standard for Christian behavior, which is what we were talking about.

But you've also said that this standard is not what sets the bar for the afterlife. It doesn't matter if you hit it.

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There seems to be this idea that Christ died so that we can sin. I find such ideas offensive and completely falls short of the mark.

But you've said that everybody sins, all the time. You said that even in the act of trying to believe in Christ, you sin. You said that it is only belief in God and Jesus that can counteract that and let you into heaven.

So... explain to me how those two things are different? Because it sounds like you must have some serious self loathing when you look in the mirror.

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I know, right? I have a very hard time remembering things I didn't do. I guess I'm just weird like that.

You can't just lie your way out of lying. It doesn't work for Trump and it won't work for you. Just be an adult and own it.

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If there is absolutely no change in a persons life and they merely use God's Grace as an excuse to sin without any conviction whatsoever, then I can state with great confidence that they're probably not a christian. "Faith without works is dead."

I would not feel comfortable passing judgement on someone in this regard, because I don't know and it's not my job. Generally speaking, it's up to that person to examine themselves and it's up to God to judge.

So again, there you go. It's not about the actions. You're saying that the actions are at best an unreliable indicator of the degree of faith, and it's the faith that matters. The actions in and of themselves, taken in isolation, are irrelevant.

I don't know how you can argue otherwise when you've said at various times that it's impossible for a human not to sin and it's impossible for a human to do anything good. What can we do.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[motionscribe 0]

jakee

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It was clear in the sense that it shows a standard for Christian behavior, which is what we were talking about.

But you've also said that this standard is not what sets the bar for the afterlife. It doesn't matter if you hit it.

But you said that Christianity is an amoral religion. The quotes I posted simply show that it's not. There's clearly concern about immorality throughout the text. Does it really follow that God doesn't care about sin just because he spared us from the eternal consequences of it in the afterlife?

Given the text, do really think He wouldn't care how people acted in that afterlife, either in heaven or on earth?

There's also ample warnings about the destructive nature/consequences of sin in this life as well, so the idea of amoralism just doesn't fit the gap.

jakee

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There seems to be this idea that Christ died so that we can sin. I find such ideas offensive and completely falls short of the mark.

But you've said that everybody sins, all the time. You said that even in the act of trying to believe in Christ, you sin. You said that it is only belief in God and Jesus that can counteract that and let you into heaven.
So... explain to me how those two things are different?

As metioned earlier in the thread, God knows one's heart. Some actually appreciate God's Grace - and tho they are free, they understand the destructive nature of their sin which is explained quite extensively throughout all of scripture. There's a sense of sincerity and personal responsibility that will limit sin in their lives.

Contrast that with those who merely take advantage of God's Grace without any understanding whatsoever, using it as an excuse to sin as if they found some type of loophole.

jakee

Because it sounds like you must have some serious self loathing when you look in the mirror.

I've had my moments, but what's it to you? I'd say the conscious/deliberate sin is probably the hardest for obvious reasons. But you get up, acknowledge the problem and address those issues and move on.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - King James Version (KJV)

If it was an amoral religion, this would've been the perfect part to say something like:

"If we confess our sins, who cares? God sure as hell doesn't. Cheerio". - Sir Jakee version (SJV)

jakee

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I know, right? I have a very hard time remembering things I didn't do. I guess I'm just weird like that.

You can't just lie your way out of lying. It doesn't work for Trump and it won't work for you. Just be an adult and own it.

I'm sorry you feel that way - that I was trying to deceive you. You said that Christianity was amoral. I felt that the quotes I posted clearly countered that specific brain fart of yours without the need for any additional commentary/context. I mean, if the religion truly was amoral, then why is the text saturated with similar quotes against immorality? Why pay it any attention in the first place?

jakee

So again, there you go. It's not about the actions. You're saying that the actions are at best an unreliable indicator of the degree of faith, and it's the faith that matters. The actions in and of themselves, taken in isolation, are irrelevant.

I just disagree that it's an amoral religion and that God doesn't care, especially when that saving faith will allow you to grow spiritually and cultivate some type of moralistic change in your life one way or another.

jakee

you've said. . .it's impossible for a human to do anything good.

I'm not hard set on any of the following, and it's not necessarily biblical, but just for the hell of it, what is "good?" Often it seems to be defined by that which mitigates the bad. For example, we say that a father being there and taking care off his family is a good thing, but why? Why is that a good thing? That should just be the way that it is, neither good nor bad. The only reason we consider it good, is because of all the deadbeats, cheaters, abusers, assholes, etc. that don't take care of their family.

I once found a large sum of money on the highway and returned it to the rightful owner. A week later they wanted to hold some award ceremony and give me a key to the city or some shit like that. Really? But that's the type of world we live in, where people are expected to get rewarded for doing things they should be doing anyway.

Can good even exist without the bad? If there was no bad, then everything would just be. Good wouldn't exist because there wouldn't be anything bad to compare it to. And that's how I think this world was meant to be. But we are so far gone that we can't even imagine how such a world could even be possible.

Doing good is just an illusion that we've created in order to stroke our own egos. "Hey look at me, I'm a good person, I did this and I did that."