A message one week before the election comment

[yoink 321]

Quote

A counseling tip: Never ask a why question. It always leads to a defensive because answer.

That's fine if you're actually counseling someone with emotional issues who you're trying to get to work through an issue.
In the context of every day discussions, particularly on a political discussion board like this it's total cowardly bullshit. You don't get to make a statement then refuse to explain the thinking behind it based on some misapplied counseling practice.

'I think Trump fiddles with children while dancing naked round a satanic circle in the oval office each morning. No, I'm not going answer you when you ask 'why?' - it always leads to a defensive 'because' answer'.

See?

If you have a position on something have the integrity and courage to back it up with rationalization and explanation if requested.

[jakee 1,563]

RonD1120

A counseling tip: Never ask a why question. It always leads to a defensive because answer.

You view him as your counsellor?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Rick 67]

wolfriverjoe

********* Three quarters of Republicans in the House now represent congressional districts where the percentage of the population with college degrees is below the national average.

GOP - the party of the poorly educated voter.

Hehe...you always assume education = intelligence. Some of the dumbest people I've ever met had sheepskins.

Take me for example. I have an AA, BA, MA, USPA-I, Tandem Master, and a Pro-Rating. People here think I'm stupid.

No. Your posting shows you are a long way from stupid.

Which makes so many of your positions on issues so difficult to understand.



it looks like you are saying that if someone has different positions on issues than you you assume they are stupid.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[billvon 3,072]

>it looks like you are saying that if someone has different positions on issues than you
>you assume they are stupid.

I think it looks like he's saying that Ron seems intelligent, which makes it hard to understand why he holds some foolish and contradictory opinions.

[Rick 67]

billvon

>it looks like you are saying that if

I think it looks like he's saying that Ron seems intelligent, which makes it hard to understand why he holds some foolish and contradictory opinions.

perhaps I read it wrong

I have seen quite few of these "someone has different positions on issues than you so you assume they are stupid" when reading post on here or facebook or other social media.


I guess it is easier to think someone is to stupid to understand the issues than try to see why they think differently.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[billvon 3,072]

>I guess it is easier to think someone is to stupid to understand the issues than try
>to see why they think differently.

That's definitely true.

There are some objectively stupid opinions (i.e. the Earth is flat, vaccines cause autism, 9/11 was an inside job) and there are plenty of examples of genuinely dumb people out there. But most people who have different opinions just see a different side of the argument.

[gowlerk 2,249]

Quote

it looks like you are saying that if someone has different positions on issues than you you assume they are stupid.

Ron has made it quite clear that he has no interest in applying his intelligence when deciding his position on political issues. He has used it instead to choose a belief system and then applies his interpretation of that system to the issue.

I see this not as being stupid, but rather choosing to act in a way that often mimics stupidity. And then comes that ancient wisdom, "stupid is as stupid does".

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[jakee 1,563]

Rick

***No. Your posting shows you are a long way from stupid.

Which makes so many of your positions on issues so difficult to understand.

it looks like you are saying that if someone has different positions on issues than you you assume they are stupid.
That's an unwarranted blanket statement.

Sometimes people say things which are stupid, and suggest courses of action which are stupid. Pointing out the stupid things things people say does not for a second equate to assuming everything one disagrees with is stupid.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Rick 67]

Yeah I see now I was looking at the post in the context of disagreeing with me means you are not smart enough to understand what we are talking about.
I have seen way too much of that the past few years. I have had people unfriend me on social media for calling them out on it.
Believing this shuts down dialog that might help us understand where others that we do not agree with are coming from and help us see both sides of the issues that we are facing in this country.
Sorry to sidetrack the thread. Maybe this should be another topic.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[RonD1120 62]

Phil1111

*********

No. Your posting shows you are a long way from stupid.

Which makes so many of your positions on issues so difficult to understand.

Over the years I have given hints to help clarify my posts.

You need to develop an empathic understanding of anger, depression, fear, and guilt.

Empathy is not synonymous with sympathy.

Oh, I understand those things quite well.

And perhaps I misstated it.

I understand what your positions are. Those are pretty clear to anyone who reads your stuff. Even the positions you refuse to admit.

What I don't understand is why you take those positions.

Ron has a dogmatic view of Christian values. Limited state involvement of the economy and anit-abortion are core. Together with support of the state when it favors them over other religions.

This may help:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-darkness/201412/dogmatic-and-spiritual-religion

Dogmatically religious people are those who think that they’re right and everyone else is wrong. For them, religion isn’t about self-development or experiencing the transcendent, but about adhering to a set of rigid beliefs and following the rules laid down by religious authorities. It’s about defending their beliefs against anyone who questions them, asserting their "truth" over other people’s, and spreading those beliefs to others. For them, the fact that other people have different beliefs is an affront, since it implies the possibility that their own beliefs may not be true. They need to convince other people that they’re wrong to prove to themselves that they’re right.

Dogmatic religion stems from a psychological need for group identity and belonging, together with a need for certainty and meaning. There is a strong impulse in human beings to define ourselves, whether it’s as a Christian, a Muslim, a socialist, an American, a Republican, or as a fan of a sports club. This urge is closely connected to the impulse to be part of a group, to feel that you belong, and share the same beliefs and principles as others. And these impulses work together with the need for certainty—the feeling that you "know," that you possess the truth, that you are right and others are wrong.

You missed me by a long way with that one. You lost me in the second sentence.

I am disappointed. You are usually more accurate.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Phil1111 1,149]

RonD1120

************

No. Your posting shows you are a long way from stupid.

Which makes so many of your positions on issues so difficult to understand.

Over the years I have given hints to help clarify my posts.

You need to develop an empathic understanding of anger, depression, fear, and guilt.

Empathy is not synonymous with sympathy.

Oh, I understand those things quite well.

And perhaps I misstated it.

I understand what your positions are. Those are pretty clear to anyone who reads your stuff. Even the positions you refuse to admit.

What I don't understand is why you take those positions.

Ron has a dogmatic view of Christian values. Limited state involvement of the economy and anit-abortion are core. Together with support of the state when it favors them over other religions.

This may help:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-darkness/201412/dogmatic-and-spiritual-religion

Dogmatically religious people are those who think that they’re right and everyone else is wrong. For them, religion isn’t about self-development or experiencing the transcendent, but about adhering to a set of rigid beliefs and following the rules laid down by religious authorities. It’s about defending their beliefs against anyone who questions them, asserting their "truth" over other people’s, and spreading those beliefs to others. For them, the fact that other people have different beliefs is an affront, since it implies the possibility that their own beliefs may not be true. They need to convince other people that they’re wrong to prove to themselves that they’re right.

Dogmatic religion stems from a psychological need for group identity and belonging, together with a need for certainty and meaning. There is a strong impulse in human beings to define ourselves, whether it’s as a Christian, a Muslim, a socialist, an American, a Republican, or as a fan of a sports club. This urge is closely connected to the impulse to be part of a group, to feel that you belong, and share the same beliefs and principles as others. And these impulses work together with the need for certainty—the feeling that you "know," that you possess the truth, that you are right and others are wrong.

You missed me by a long way with that one. You lost me in the second sentence.

I am disappointed. You are usually more accurate.

Feel free to steer me right. Nobody here receives more abuse than you. Nobody is more prepared to turn the other cheek without any flush of anger.

Nobody is more steadfast in the course and truth of their beliefs.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Rick

Yeah I see now I was looking at the post in the context of disagreeing with me means you are not smart enough to understand what we are talking about.
I have seen way too much of that the past few years. I have had people unfriend me on social media for calling them out on it.
Believing this shuts down dialog that might help us understand where others that we do not agree with are coming from and help us see both sides of the issues that we are facing in this country.
Sorry to sidetrack the thread. Maybe this should be another topic.

Pfft. Thread drift is common.

Your original opinion (which you have more or less retracted) was not my position.

"Just because I don't agree with you makes you stupid" is not correct.

BUT...

That doesn't excuse the false equivalency that so many expect when they voice opinions that ARE stupid.

I'm more than willing to listen to alternative views.

But when someone says "I support Trump because he is a terrific leader and a successful businessman", I can't give them a whole lot of respect because the evidence shows that he couldn't lead a three year old to the toilet and most of his business ventures ended in bankruptcy (bankruptcies where he lined his own pockets in the process).

There's a quote often attributed to Issac Asimov:

Quote

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

This sort of attitude has let to Trump, 'Fake News' (both the actual fake stuff like Brietbart and the idea that the Mainstream Media is a huge conspiracy to lie to us), and a lot of other idiocy.

Calling out stupidity and ignorance isn't shutting down dialog.

Requiring someone to present actual facts, data and verifiable information to back up their position isn't shutting down dialog.

Allowing fools and idiots to present their idiocy is.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[JerryBaumchen 1,439]

Hi Bill,

Quote

But for the large part, IQ matches educational level.

Some related info: 'The new cultural divide is education," Bill McInturff, a Republican pollster, told The Wall Street Journal. "Republicans are now the party of those with a high-school diploma or less," Mr. McInturff said, "with Democrats having a totally dominating advantage among those with a postgraduate degree.'

Admittedly, the Daily Kos is biased: https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/11/12/1812347/-College-degree-holders-increasingly-vote-Democratic

Jerry Baumchen

[RonD1120 62]

Phil1111

***************

No. Your posting shows you are a long way from stupid.

Which makes so many of your positions on issues so difficult to understand.

Over the years I have given hints to help clarify my posts.

You need to develop an empathic understanding of anger, depression, fear, and guilt.

Empathy is not synonymous with sympathy.

Oh, I understand those things quite well.

And perhaps I misstated it.

I understand what your positions are. Those are pretty clear to anyone who reads your stuff. Even the positions you refuse to admit.

What I don't understand is why you take those positions.

Ron has a dogmatic view of Christian values. Limited state involvement of the economy and anit-abortion are core. Together with support of the state when it favors them over other religions.

This may help:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/out-the-darkness/201412/dogmatic-and-spiritual-religion

Dogmatically religious people are those who think that they’re right and everyone else is wrong. For them, religion isn’t about self-development or experiencing the transcendent, but about adhering to a set of rigid beliefs and following the rules laid down by religious authorities. It’s about defending their beliefs against anyone who questions them, asserting their "truth" over other people’s, and spreading those beliefs to others. For them, the fact that other people have different beliefs is an affront, since it implies the possibility that their own beliefs may not be true. They need to convince other people that they’re wrong to prove to themselves that they’re right.

Dogmatic religion stems from a psychological need for group identity and belonging, together with a need for certainty and meaning. There is a strong impulse in human beings to define ourselves, whether it’s as a Christian, a Muslim, a socialist, an American, a Republican, or as a fan of a sports club. This urge is closely connected to the impulse to be part of a group, to feel that you belong, and share the same beliefs and principles as others. And these impulses work together with the need for certainty—the feeling that you "know," that you possess the truth, that you are right and others are wrong.

You missed me by a long way with that one. You lost me in the second sentence.

I am disappointed. You are usually more accurate.

Feel free to steer me right. Nobody here receives more abuse than you. Nobody is more prepared to turn the other cheek without any flush of anger.

Nobody is more steadfast in the course and truth of their beliefs.

I do not consider myself a religious person because religion requires a rigid path of legalism. As a spiritual traveler transcendence is the goal.

My life is fluid and dynamic. Religion is ritualized behavior.

I concede that many Christians are religious due to their fear of the unknown. They want stability and reasonable certainty.

I am not one of them.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[Phil1111 1,149]

Thanks

[Rick 67]

wolfriverjoe

***Yeah I see now I was looking at the post in the context of disagreeing with me means you are not smart enough to understand what we are talking about.
I have seen way too much of that the past few years. I have had people unfriend me on social media for calling them out on it.
Believing this shuts down dialog that might help us understand where others that we do not agree with are coming from and help us see both sides of the issues that we are facing in this country.
Sorry to sidetrack the thread. Maybe this should be another topic.

Pfft. Thread drift is common.

Your original opinion (which you have more or less retracted) was not my position.

"Just because I don't agree with you makes you stupid" is not correct.

BUT...

That doesn't excuse the false equivalency that so many expect when they voice opinions that ARE stupid.

I'm more than willing to listen to alternative views.

But when someone says "I support Trump because he is a terrific leader and a successful businessman", I can't give them a whole lot of respect because the evidence shows that he couldn't lead a three year old to the toilet and most of his business ventures ended in bankruptcy (bankruptcies where he lined his own pockets in the process).

There's a quote often attributed to Issac Asimov:

Quote

There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."

This sort of attitude has let to Trump, 'Fake News' (both the actual fake stuff like Brietbart and the idea that the Mainstream Media is a huge conspiracy to lie to us), and a lot of other idiocy.

Calling out stupidity and ignorance isn't shutting down dialog.

Requiring someone to present actual facts, data and verifiable information to back up their position isn't shutting down dialog.

Allowing fools and idiots to present their idiocy is.

I am talking about throwing the stupid word out before any dialog can be had. Just knowing who someone voted for and immediately thinking them to be stupid for that choice without knowing the reasoning.

As far as the "successful businessman" if you think that money is the only measure then lining your pockets by taking advantage of bankruptcy laws can be viewed as a good business move.

I don't agree with that but it just shows that in some cases stupid is in the eye of the beholder.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[normiss 851]

It's interesting to see people with differing views become angry enough over those differences that they feel the need to respond with insults, anger, and name calling.
I don't understand this change in our society.
We used to work together, seems lately more effort to work against.

Lining your own pockets during bankruptcy is just greedy panic IMO.
Accept the failure, make the best of it, sort it out properly, make changes to improve and move on!
I hope I never have to find out how this works though.

[Rick 67]

normiss

It's interesting to see people with differing views become angry enough over those differences that they feel the need to respond with insults, anger, and name calling.
I don't understand this change in our society.
We used to work together, seems lately more effort to work against.

Lining your own pockets during bankruptcy is just greedy panic IMO.
Accept the failure, make the best of it, sort it out properly, make changes to improve and move on!
I hope I never have to find out how this works though.

I agree Mark. You saw what my partners and I worked through some years ago. Not everyone thinks that way or are willing to put in the hard work to get past a tough time. So I can see how they view the several bankruptcies as a part of doing business. I was just using that as an example of what seems stupid or obvious to one person is completely off another person radar.

I have friends that are miles apart from me on many political issues . But we can still have a conversation and then drop it and enjoy the things we do have in common. I don't think they are stupid because they have different views.

Now if you told me you believe the earth is flat I may have to call you out.

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[normiss 851]

We can have that discussion over beers.
We're due again anyway!

[wmw999 2,537]

Quote

We can have that discussion over beers

What, about the earth being flat ?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[normiss 851]

We welcome our friends around the globe to join the discussion!

[ryoder 1,590]

Does anyone have a tiny violin?

LATimes: Trump, stung by midterms and nervous about Mueller, retreats from traditional presidential duties
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-absent-20181113-story.html

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[Phil1111 1,149]

ryoder

Does anyone have a tiny violin?

LATimes: Trump, stung by midterms and nervous about Mueller, retreats from traditional presidential duties
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-absent-20181113-story.html

I hope Mattis changes the launch codes when the Mueller report comes out.

[ryoder 1,590]

Phil1111

***Does anyone have a tiny violin?

LATimes: Trump, stung by midterms and nervous about Mueller, retreats from traditional presidential duties
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-absent-20181113-story.html

I hope Mattis changes the launch codes when the Mueller report comes out.

I think something is happening with Mueller;
I subscribe to his Facebook feed.
When he posts, it is always one short sentence with a link to a news article.
This happens about once every two weeks.
But he has done this 3 times in the past 24 hours.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[yoink 321]

ryoder

Does anyone have a tiny violin?

LATimes: Trump, stung by midterms and nervous about Mueller, retreats from traditional presidential duties
http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-absent-20181113-story.html

Quote

Although it was Veterans Day, Trump bucked tradition and opted not to make the two-mile trip to Arlington National Cemetery in northern Virginia to lay a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, as presidents since at least John F. Kennedy have done to mark the solemn holiday.

You can’t exoect a draft-dodger to respect veterans, anyway.