The111 1 #26 June 19, 2006 QuoteBreaks are usually unstowed by 18-1900 feet. I jump at a small cessna dropzone, normal breakoff is 3500 ft, with pull altitude of 2300 feet. You must have the world's fastest opening Pilot 188.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #27 June 19, 2006 No rig is tested for opening speed during the TSO process more than a couple of days after packing. So the FAA doesn't have any data that 4 months, or two weeks, doesn't lengthening opening time. I've returned a couple of reserves before because they took a 'set' and took significant energy to pull them apart. Not stuck, just set up like a brick. All riggers have seen reserve come out like a limp rag or like a brick. Does it affect opening time. I'd bet it does, lsightly. But testing isn't required and there is no specification on the fabric on easily it takes a set or how stiff a crease is. I've always thought there should be but it probably is unreasonable given that calandering is as much an art. I'm always amazed when manufacturers tell me how much material they have to discard from a bolt based on inspection. PD is doing a 3 years study opening the identical rigs after being packed up to one year. Should be about done but don't know that the information will ever be made public. PIA was going to do a somewhat similar study, and was offered the data from PD, to support the request for a change from 120 to 180 days. But the FAA indicated that we should submit the request for a wavier. Then denied it and are supposedly going to start a rule change when they get to it. And of course jumping a main packed more than 120 days in the US is illegal. We'd never do that would we?I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #28 June 19, 2006 QuoteI'd bet it does, sightly So would I. Slightly. Not enough to make me worry about my main tho. Considering how energetic and chaotic an opening is, I hope the PD study is done with a good numbers of rigs to make it statistically significant.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #29 June 20, 2006 >You must have the world's fastest opening Pilot 188. I have a Pilot 150 and a Pilot 117 that both open pretty consistently within 500 feet. Amy's 140 is getting a bit old, and it's starting to slam open now, but she hasn't seen very long Spectre-like openings either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrBrant 0 #30 June 20, 2006 QuoteAn A is directed to use 2500 - someone uncurrent at 130 would qualify there. But yeah, I'd like to think I'dstill chop at 2k if it looked that bad. Ok, so that is a standard "decision" height then. It just sounded a bit excessive (IMHO only) for somebody with 130 jumps. (Not that I would criticize anybody for thier chop/no chop desision, but I do like to analize the decision process) what's the recomended altitudes for Pre-A, and B liscense holders? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #31 June 20, 2006 If memory serves, it's 1,800 for B-D holders. Don't know about Pre-A students. Then again, I could be completely wrong.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumper03 0 #32 June 20, 2006 Quote>Having seen new-ish ZP stick together after being packed for a relatively short time . . . Hmm. Only time I've seen that happen is when a canopy had something nasty (like blood or soda) on it. It's called blocking. I've seen a brand new zp canopy packed for several months come out of the d-bag like a brick. You could hold it up and it would retain the shape of the d-bag. Took a bit to shake it out. Would it have opened? not sure. But if I've got a zp canopy packed for more than a few months, I'm gonna open it and flake it out.Scars remind us that the past is real Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,998 #33 June 20, 2006 >I've seen a brand new zp canopy packed for several months come out of the d-bag like a brick. Oh, I thought he meant fabric actually sticking to itself. Yeah, that happens to F-111 and ZP alike. I have a few canopies here, both ZP and F111, that I unpacked after a few years and they sat there like stones. Even ones that you struggled and cursed to get in the bag to begin with sit there in a solid mass with plenty of room between them and the bag. But there's a big difference between sitting on your floor and being in 120mph of air. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #34 June 20, 2006 Using powder to avoid sticking of the material was a regular procedure with round canopies. It had some space for practical jokes too: having a rig prepared for surprise with extra amount of powder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #35 June 20, 2006 QuoteIt had some space for practical jokes too: having a rig prepared for surprise with extra amount of powder. Sand blasting canopies? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #36 June 20, 2006 I've seen only once. It was not a success, because powder was blown away by the wind :(. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,317 #37 June 20, 2006 There's a book of recommendations put out by the USPA that is viewable online called the SIM. It can be found at: http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/SIM.htm Within that book of recommendations, it states: Minimum container opening altitudes above the ground for skydivers are: 1. Tandem jumps--4,500 feet AGL 2. All students and A-license holders--3,000 feet AGL 3. B-license holders--2,500 feet AGL 4. C- and D-license holders--2,000 feet AGLNobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #38 June 20, 2006 QuoteI thought he meant fabric actually sticking to itself. Yeah, that happens to F-111 and ZP alike. If "alike" means that it happens with F-111 and ZP in the same manner after the same amount of time being packed (fabric sticking together, canopy remaining in the shape of the deployment bag) - well, I'm afraid that just isn't true. I would be nervous when opening a ZP canopy that's been packed for more than 120 days but I would jump F-111 that's been in the bag for as long as a year... (O daredevil me! ) This year I purchased two used student rigs that had Skymasters in them (ZP top layer) and Raven 3 reserves. Apparently the mains had been packed somewhere last season and (since they were going to sell) they also didn't bother to repack the reserves. With both mains and reserves packed since october 2005 (mains I'm not sure, just a guestimate - I only have the reserve log card) I had an opportunity to see how they came out of their bags in march / april of this year. The Skymasters had turned to 'bricks' where you had actually have to shake it violently and layers sticked together that had to be peeled apart. The Raven 3 reserves came out fine without any sticking together and keeping the shape of their D-bag and would have opened like they had been packed a month ago. I think it has to do with the coating of the ZP-fabric which tends to stick together after a while. ZP reserves, anyone? "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #39 June 21, 2006 I packed myself a step through about 2 months ago. After cursing myself out after the opening, I did control checks and landed it fine. It flew a little bit differently because the risers weren't seperating as much as normal(twisted together). But if you can't control it, it's not a landable parachute IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #40 June 22, 2006 QuoteUsing powder to avoid sticking of the material was a regular procedure with round canopies. I have never seen it used on rounds or any other type of canopy. To it on a reserve would be a violation of FAR's in the US.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #41 June 22, 2006 QuoteIf "alike" means that it happens with F-111 and ZP in the same manner after the same amount of time being packed (fabric sticking together, canopy remaining in the shape of the deployment bag) - well, I'm afraid that just isn't true. You are 100% correct. That is the main reason reserves are not made of ZP. The "bricking" is caused by the silicone coating on ZP.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #42 June 22, 2006 QuoteThere's a book of recommendations put out by the USPA that is viewable online called the SIM. It can be found at: http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2006SIM/SIM.htm Thanks Bigun...so simple to RTFM PEOPLE!!!!!!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #43 June 22, 2006 Don't worry, I know the deployment altitudes. I was referring to decision/hard-deck/EP initiation altitudes. I RTFM I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #44 June 24, 2006 I'm all for using the reserve if you need to. But if you have a flying canopy over your head that will land you OK, sometimes it's better to keep it than to take a chance with door #2. The jumper had almost no steering control at all (also no flare, but it was a PD-260) and drifted downwind and landed in a back yard more out of luck than anything else. We learn if it's not there, square, and steerable, then it's a bad parachute. Both of the above statements imply that a controllability check has, or should be successfully performed. A wing that can't or won't respond to control inputs , or responds erratically to them isn't safe to land. In the last two years there have been two fatalities at Perris involving jumpers who elected to land canopies they could not control. One was a newbie with about 150 jumps who lost control about 200 ft off the deck and spiralled in. The other was a jumper with over 1100 jumps, who was on a 120+ bigway jump and had a control problem with a steering line. Her mistake was just as fatal, so it doesn't only happen to newbies, anybody can screw up and you only have to do it badly enough once. Of course a reserve can malfuntion too, it's something we'd rather not think about happening. But the fact is that more people die from NOT going to their reserve than because they may have made an "unnecessary" cutaway. Reserves can fail too, but ultimately he HAVE TO trust them, as that's the nature of the game - and our decision to play. So a proper controllability check, which requires pulling on both toggles (and thus unstowing the brakes) will tell you quickly whether or not to keep it or lose it. Left - right - flare. Does it work or doesn't it ? That's all you need to know. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites