Green New Deal

[airdvr 210]

Ocasio-Cortez-Green-New-Deal-Resolution.pdf

Wow!  My initial reaction is solely "how will we pay for all of this?".  Some good ideas but many that rely on the government to "create".   I have serious doubts our government can create these things without the help of the private sector and the planks of this position are punishing to that sector.  It also intertwines social justice with green policy.  Not sure how the 2 relate.

 

[billvon 3,068]

11 minutes ago, airdvr said:

Ocasio-Cortez-Green-New-Deal-Resolution.pdf

Wow!  My initial reaction is solely "how will we pay for all of this?".  Some good ideas but many that rely on the government to "create".   I have serious doubts our government can create these things without the help of the private sector and the planks of this position are punishing to that sector.  It also intertwines social justice with green policy.  Not sure how the 2 relate.

 

I don't see any new requirements for the government to create; that seems to be left to capitalist companies. Right now the US spends some federal money for research (i.e. the NREL) but 99% of the government's clean-energy efforts come through incentive programs and regulation.  Nothing in that bill would change that.

The "social justice" part is because climate change hammers the poor more than the rich.  A millionaire in Denver isn't going to be as impacted as a guy who lives in a shack on a floodplain.

However, there's way too much goop in there that has nothing to do with climate change.  Indigenous rights.  Health care.  Free trade protections.  Racial injustices.  The growing social divide.  Put all that stuff somewhere else.

I am glad to see they got rid of the "end nuclear power" plank.  Ending nuclear power would increase CO2 emissions.

[Iago 8]

Ya know what, I had an epiphany this past week while driving 1200+ miles and putting in sixty plus site hours in Northern Iowa.  Dealing with the freezing wind chill, ice spikes so I don’t bust my ass, blizzard white out conditions.  I’m just sick of doing it.  I’m tired of being away from home and friends and family.  I’m tired of having to go out and earn a check to survive being a producer and providing a service.

 

AOC is the best thing to ever happen to this country.  I want my free shit.  I want my government guaranteed house.  I want my free health care so I don’t have to pay $400 for these inhalers that only cost that much because the last “great left hope” banned CFCs for medical applications and everything went back into patent.  I want my “unwilling to work” guaranteed economic security.  SOMEONE ELSE can come up here and deal with this crap.  I just want some of the money that THEY went out and FROZE THEIR ASS OFF to earn.  And I should get some of EVERYONE ELSE’S MONEY because we’re all part of one big happy collective and we’re supposed to share everything.

 

Fuck this crap.

[billvon 3,068]

18 minutes ago, Iago said:

Ya know what, I had an epiphany this past week while driving 1200+ miles and putting in sixty plus site hours in Northern Iowa.  Dealing with the freezing wind chill, ice spikes so I don’t bust my ass, blizzard white out conditions.  I’m just sick of doing it.  I’m tired of being away from home and friends and family.  I’m tired of having to go out and earn a check to survive being a producer and providing a service.

 

AOC is the best thing to ever happen to this country.  I want my free shit.  I want my government guaranteed house.  I want my free health care so I don’t have to pay $400 for these inhalers that only cost that much because the last “great left hope” banned CFCs for medical applications and everything went back into patent.  I want my “unwilling to work” guaranteed economic security.  SOMEONE ELSE can come up here and deal with this crap.  I just want some of the money that THEY went out and FROZE THEIR ASS OFF to earn.  And I should get some of EVERYONE ELSE’S MONEY because we’re all part of one big happy collective and we’re supposed to share everything.

 

Fuck this crap.

There's some serious irrational hate being thrown at AOC.  A lot of right wingers are getting triggered.  It will be an interesting few years.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

There's some serious irrational hate being thrown at AOC.  A lot of right wingers are getting triggered.  It will be an interesting few years.

Its completely rational. Ms. Ocasio-Cortez has been a congress-woman for a few days over a month. A Latino woman who refuses to feed at the trough of the lobbyists, like republicans. One who uses social media and the press to get exposure. Exposure of their special interest actions, support and acts of legislation. A upstart woman who shows no respect for the republican status-quo. Bitch!

This explains why: Conservatives Fear Latinos and Socialism. They Are Terrified of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

" Observers have pointed out, correctly, that these jabs are largely about belonging. Only by delegitimizing Ocasio-Cortez and mining her every act for hypocrisy can they make sense of her presence on Capitol Hill as a 29-year-old, working-class woman of color. When she discusses her background — that her mother scrubbed toilets for a living, and that she will likely have trouble affording rent without a salary for the rest of 2018 — they claim she is richer than she says and laugh through television segments about her rent struggles. Fox News has spent seemingly constant airtime discussing and mocking her and mispronouncing her name. When on Sunday she described “the presidency, the Senate, and the House” as “all three chambers of government,” conservative pundits, journalists, and politicians piled on, ridiculing her. The Daily Caller and Townhall both ran stories about the gaffe. "

Continue reading the story above. It gets better. FOX and friends? More like FOX and the right wing hatchet jobs. All to protect the status, the entitlements, the brown-shirt actions, of the right.

‘Bad guy’: AOC’s ‘sensational’ five-minute takedown US finance laws Show how her efforts have mad an impact internationally. Made republicans look like old fools for how they have instituted laws and their enforcement.

[Iago 8]

Hey, I'm on your side now.  I'm looking forward to the Indians getting the Island of Manhattan returned to them as part of the new "Social and Racial Justice" movement.

 

After that, California can go back to Mexico.

 

Edited February 9, 2019 by Iago

[billvon 3,068]

2 minutes ago, Iago said:

Hey, I'm on your side now. 

You're right; I will switch to your way of doing things too.

It will be a relief.  I've spent so much of my life thinking about stuff in the real world; designing things that operate on some basic physical principles.  If you get the design wrong, it doesn't work.  It is so tiring.  But I have seen the light, and will start believing that climate change is all a Chinese conspiracy, that vaccines cause autism (I don't like injections anyway) that efficient light bulbs cause cancer and that truth isn't truth.  I'll design crappy stuff and sue people when it doesn't work.  I'll reject science, because that's for those ivory tower elitists anyway.  Good old salt-of-the-earth people like coal miners and the like have more sense than any college professor or scientist!  Put them in charge of science policy, food inspections, communicable disease control and aviation accident investigations.  And they better not have any fancy degrees that make them snooty!  We love the poorly educated.  

It will be so much easier.  I'll get a job with the government and spend my time saying politically correct things like "make America great again."  I'll work to get my own projects funded while lowering taxes, as long as the bill comes due after I retire - and as long as the eventual failure happens after I move on.  Maybe some levees?  No more being hounded to produce things that work; I will mainly produce slogans and paperwork like any good American.  Let someone else do that thinking stuff, in China or something.  Just give us the jobs and the money.  We deserve them.

Or maybe I'll take a uniquely American job like personal injury lawyer, reality show worker or insurance salesman.  I could open my own insurance company, go bankrupt, stiff my accounts payable and my employees, collect my golden parachute and move on.  Why, enough bankruptcies and I could be president!

And immigrants!  Don't get me started.  Ban them all and keep their money and jobs for us.  They are all rapists anyway.  Never mind the ones that started companies and stuff; if they started companies in the US they must suck because it's not made in America.  Well, except for my friends and family; they're different.

Yep, I am definitely coming around to your way of thinking.

[Iago 8]

Welcome to the club!  We have mixers first Friday of the month down by the river.

[Phil1111 1,149]

On 2/8/2019 at 10:36 AM, airdvr said:

Ocasio-Cortez-Green-New-Deal-Resolution.pdf

Wow!  My initial reaction is solely "how will we pay for all of this?".  Some good ideas but many that rely on the government to "create".   I have serious doubts our government can create these things without the help of the private sector and the planks of this position are punishing to that sector.  It also intertwines social justice with green policy.  Not sure how the 2 relate.

 

Americans support Ocasio-Cortez’s 70 percent tax rate on rich: poll

Unlike trump and the republicans. Who seem to believe that your children should pay for tax cuts. Some believe that taxation fairness. Should pay for new programs. trumps "trickle down" economics theory have been sold to semi-illiterate Americans three times. Three times they have failed. Every time new tax loopholes have been part of the republican agenda.

The result:

Richest in U.S. have a few tricks to avoid Democrats’ tax plans

Want to Expand the Economy? Tax the Rich!

Should just about pay for the new green programs and pay off the deficit. All well creating jobs that increase net take home pay of the average working American.

Two threads about this junior democrat Latino congress-woman in two weeks...yes there is a reason for that. FOX and the right wing web-tacticians for trump parrot a story line. Their base jumps in unison at the outrage.

Ocasio-Cortez tears into ‘intellectually bankrupt’ GOP over ‘targeted rumors’

Edited February 9, 2019 by Phil1111

[airdvr 210]

I'm all for raising taxes on the rich.  Still not sure how you achieve these goals.

 (B) to create millions of good, high-wage jobs and ensure prosperity and economic security for all people of the United States;

Again, government doesn't create anything.  What it gives to one must be taken from another.  In order for 50% of the things in this resolution to happen you'll need to cooperation of 66% of the others in congress.  When was the last time that happened?

[Iago 8]

I absolutely agree- bleed the bastards dry. 

Let’s start with Pelosi.  She’s worth a couple of ten million dollars.  She doesn’t need all that.  Bernie doesn’t need his three vacation houses- he can give one of those to me as part of my “free guaranteed housing.”

[jakee 1,562]

2 minutes ago, Iago said:

I absolutely agree- bleed the bastards dry. 

Let’s start with Pelosi.  She’s worth a couple of ten million dollars.  She doesn’t need all that.

So ask her if she'd be happy to see a higher tax rate on people in her wealth bracket. The answer would probably be 'yes'.

 

Assuming that's the case, what's your point?

[Phil1111 1,149]

23 minutes ago, jakee said:

So ask her if she'd be happy to see a higher tax rate on people in her wealth bracket. The answer would probably be 'yes'.

 

Assuming that's the case, what's your point?

Ignoratio elenchi , are presented when facts can't be reasonably debated. Iago and airdvr can't concede the nuance of the issue for which they initiated discussion. So the red herring is tossed back into the sea so to speak.

[Iago 8]

I'm supposed to have an actual point?  Oh, sorry the rules weren't explained.  

 

I'm just here waiting for the next dancer to take the pole.  It's gonna be great when I start getting my "guaranteed economic security checks." I can come here every night!  Course, I'll have to downgrade my tips from quarters to dimes to stretch it all month.

[jakee 1,562]

15 minutes ago, Iago said:

I'm supposed to have an actual point?  Oh, sorry the rules weren't explained.  

It's kinda fascinating that you know the argument you're presenting is a strawman, you won't even attempt to defend it, yet you still seem to believe it.

[Iago 8]

This is entertainment.  You can't have a real discussion on an internet forum.

[billvon 3,068]

5 hours ago, airdvr said:

Again, government doesn't create anything.  What it gives to one must be taken from another. 

Yep.  Which is how all commerce works.  The government just does it by fiat.

[billvon 3,068]

2 hours ago, Iago said:

I absolutely agree- bleed the bastards dry. 

 

I don't agree.  They are not bastards and they do not need to be "bled." 

The basic problem is you need money to support the government.  And with the Trump spending increases, we need to take in more money.  So how do you do that?  Raise taxes on the poor?  You just won't get much since they have very little income.  Raise them on the middle class?  That's what the last tax bill tried - and looks like it's not too popular.

That leaves the rich.  Not because they are evil, or bastards, or need to be bled, but because 1) they have it and 2) even at 70% on all the income over ten million, no one it affects will go hungry.  Which is a worthwhile thing to consider.

Also realize that back in the "good old days" taxes on the rich were closer to 90%.  We seemed to survive, and even prosper, since that was the period that many considered the golden age of American commerce.

Quote

Let’s start with Pelosi.  She’s worth a couple of ten million dollars.  She doesn’t need all that. 

Uh - you do realize what an income tax is, right?

[Iago 8]

Please don’t play this game Bill.  You are far too educated and accomplished to stoop to this level of patronization.

[jakee 1,562]

10 hours ago, Iago said:

This is entertainment.  You can't have a real discussion on an internet forum.

Serious discussion is one thing, but you're satirising your own views and admitting they're baseless... yet they're still your views.

 

It's strange.

[kallend 2,106]

9 hours ago, Iago said:

Please don’t play this game Bill.  You are far too educated and accomplished to stoop to this level of patronization.

You came  here to be entertained.  No-one forces you to be here and read Bill's words.

[kallend 2,106]

On 2/8/2019 at 10:36 AM, airdvr said:

Ocasio-Cortez-Green-New-Deal-Resolution.pdf

Wow!  My initial reaction is solely "how will we pay for all of this?".  Some good ideas but many that rely on the government to "create".   I have serious doubts our government can create these things without the help of the private sector and the planks of this position are punishing to that sector.  It also intertwines social justice with green policy.  Not sure how the 2 relate.

 

Why are the right wingers so preoccupied with O-C?  Is she really such a threat to them?

 

I recall (yes, I'm old) that under Eisenhower the top tax rate was around 90%, yet there was good economic growth and much less whining from the wealthy.

Edited February 10, 2019 by kallend

[Iago 8]

(Throws sword at dais)

Are you not entertained?!

[jakee 1,562]

2 hours ago, Iago said:

(Throws sword at dais)

Are you not entertained?!

To be honest, no. You're being quite boring.

 

Sorry.

[BIGUN 1,402]

3 hours ago, kallend said:

Why are the right wingers so preoccupied with O-C?  Is she really such a threat to them?

 

The Democrat side of her is not a threat; it's the "As a Socialist;" she is a threat. The below quote and article is the right-wing belief system.

Quote

A common fallacy is that the Great Depression was ended by the explosive spending of World War II.  But World War II actually institutionalized the sharp decline in the standard of living caused by the Depression.  The Depression was actually ended, and prosperity restored, by the sharp reductions in spending, taxes and regulation at the end of World War II, exactly contrary to the analysis of Keynesian so-called economists.

>snip

Increased government spending does nothing to create economic recovery, growth and prosperity.  That is because the money to finance that increased government spending is drained from the private sector, either through increased taxes, or increased borrowing.  That entire transaction involves a net drag on the economy.  Increased taxes to finance the increased spending involve counterproductive incentives that reduce production and growth.  Increased government borrowing drains investment capital from productive activities in the private sector and re-allocates it to non-productive government consumption. 

SOURCE: https://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2013/11/30/the-great-depression-was-ended-by-the-end-of-world-war-ii-not-the-start-of-it/#75b7eb3257d3