Geno1 0 #26 October 13, 2021 On 3/22/2019 at 6:16 PM, gowlerk said: Be careful, you are spreading false information. Vectran is considered dimensionally stable. A Vectran lined canopy stays in trim. If anyone is confused and wants to better understand line material characteristics they should go to the PD website and read their excellent article explain it. that might be true, but PD recommends dacron for jumpers with exit weights above 260 on the Spectres. That might explain why it helps with potential hard openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danornan 79 #27 October 13, 2021 I had two Spectra and got slammed by one out of maybe 1,000 jumps. I'm pretty sure it was the packer because at the boogie, several others had the same happen to them. My present Pilot 132 has 600+ jumps and all great openings. I just ordered another Pilot but 168 for a bit more canopy above my head. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kleggo 145 #28 October 13, 2021 On 3/2/2019 at 6:23 PM, sheeks said: all the stows are double-wrapped in the correct sequence to about 10-12 pounds (and sprayed with silicone to avoid baglock), What? Why? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #29 October 13, 2021 On 3/2/2019 at 8:23 PM, sheeks said: I know that the repeated mantra is “any canopy can open hard unexpectedly”, My version is a bit more direct. "When it comes to deployments, any canopy can kill you on any jump". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fabiendonato 0 #30 October 14, 2021 On 3/3/2019 at 3:23 AM, sheeks said: I know that the repeated mantra is “any canopy can open hard unexpectedly”, but obviously canopy design is a huge factor in that. The Sabre 1 is living proof of my point without much more needing to be said. But regardless, people still occasionally die because of the openings on modern canopies that usually open soft and snivvely. I’ve heard good things about PD’s Storm, but Carolyn Clay was alao allegedly flying one when she passed away. So my point remains. I was thinking of getting my first rig soon, and i’m honestly tied between getting an F111 canopy or an AD Pilot, with dacron either way, because my #1 main focus is gonna be on trying to avoid a hard opening. Assuming the lines are kept in trim, the slider is up, and all the stows are double-wrapped in the correct sequence to about 10-12 pounds (and sprayed with silicone to avoid baglock), and I pull stable, does that pretty much cover all the elements in terms of being realistic about staying soft? I’m fragile as fuck. Would having a master rigger add a slider pocket to a Pilot or switch the slider out for a domed one be an acceptable precautionary practice on the offhand chance of something getting screwed up during deployment as an added security measure, or would it cause more harm than good? (Assuming the extra 200-500 feet of snivel from a slider mod would be kept in consideration during tracking and pull altitudes) last summer there is someone who had a terrible shock opening with a Pilot from Aerodyne , the emmergency services had to take him to hospital because he broke his neck... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #31 October 14, 2021 I'm going to add my voice to the "spraycan-dissenter crowd" of course, but I'd also like to submit that I'm not a fan of double stowing. I prefer to use small rubber bands and keep them in good condition. If I have to replace one, I also replace the opposite one. For reference, I jump a Lightning 160 with Dacron lines. When I loan rubber bands to swoopers, they complain that these rubber bands are too small (presumably for double stowing). :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #32 October 16, 2021 I jump: Pilot 168, with Dacron lines, and (larger) slider from Pilot 230 with brass slider grommets. 800 jumps, one extremely fast opening (lasted half a second), but the force was not transmitted brutally to me! I was amazed, did not feel any pain or even discomfort. I contribute this to stretchy Dacron. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
louispaulcarrier 0 #34 October 17, 2021 On 3/3/2019 at 9:15 AM, lyosha said: If soft openings are your goal, F111 should not be in consideration. All modern canopies made from F111 all open harder than their pure zp counterparts. That's why people like them for wingsuitting. I have a pilot 9 right now and openings are always great thus far(about 100 jumps on it). Haven't heard of anyone getting slammed by one. I'm not a pilot fanboy by any means, my favorite canopy to date was my sabre2... but it did open uncomfortably on occasion. I'm a guy that switches canopies every 100 or so jumps just to try something new. I've also put a bunch of jumps on a Sabre1 with a pocket slider. I wouldn't put one on a pilot. I already get 1000 foot snivels out of it on occasion. Any more and it will be ridiculous... Both of the instances where a canopy opened hard enough to damage itself, the canopy was a safire2. Haven't come across similar from a pilot yet, but could also be that sample size is too small and events too uncommon. But if you're trying to avoid the tail cases to the point of paranoia... In my jumps on it it behaved fine. Hope this helps. I have seen an experimented guy slammed so hard by a Pilot 7 what he had broken ribs after opening and could not flair his main, then he hurted his legs very bad by hitting the ground...he did not jump again Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #35 October 17, 2021 No. I have never seen any9one injured by an Aerodyne Pilot's opening-shock. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #36 October 18, 2021 Yes, I have repaired 2x pilots (a 188 and a 210) this year alone for hard opening that broke lines, line attachment points and blew out portions of the tail. One I repaired myself, one ended up with a completely cracked rib and I sent that to the factory, and it was almost $800 in repairs. The common denominator in both of these were packers who use the new(?) methods of bagging the Top of the canopy first and then the fold to lock the slider in last. This method, if not done extremely carefully, results in the packer essentially shoving the slider back into the deployment bag. I attribute those to gross packing error. In all sincerity, I wish Aerodyne and the other manufacturers would put a statement out and discourage that method of bagging. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jyadz 9 #37 October 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Unstable said: Yes, I have repaired 2x pilots (a 188 and a 210) this year alone for hard opening that broke lines, line attachment points and blew out portions of the tail. One I repaired myself, one ended up with a completely cracked rib and I sent that to the factory, and it was almost $800 in repairs. The common denominator in both of these were packers who use the new(?) methods of bagging the Top of the canopy first and then the fold to lock the slider in last. This method, if not done extremely carefully, results in the packer essentially shoving the slider back into the deployment bag. I attribute those to gross packing error. In all sincerity, I wish Aerodyne and the other manufacturers would put a statement out and discourage that method of bagging. Can you explain more on this method of packing? Are you referring to the reverse S fold? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
siegfriedewargny 0 #38 October 23, 2021 On 3/3/2019 at 3:23 AM, sheeks said: I know that the repeated mantra is “any canopy can open hard unexpectedly”, but obviously canopy design is a huge factor in that. The Sabre 1 is living proof of my point without much more needing to be said. But regardless, people still occasionally die because of the openings on modern canopies that usually open soft and snivvely. I’ve heard good things about PD’s Storm, but Carolyn Clay was alao allegedly flying one when she passed away. So my point remains. I was thinking of getting my first rig soon, and i’m honestly tied between getting an F111 canopy or an AD Pilot, with dacron either way, because my #1 main focus is gonna be on trying to avoid a hard opening. Assuming the lines are kept in trim, the slider is up, and all the stows are double-wrapped in the correct sequence to about 10-12 pounds (and sprayed with silicone to avoid baglock), and I pull stable, does that pretty much cover all the elements in terms of being realistic about staying soft? I’m fragile as fuck. Would having a master rigger add a slider pocket to a Pilot or switch the slider out for a domed one be an acceptable precautionary practice on the offhand chance of something getting screwed up during deployment as an added security measure, or would it cause more harm than good? (Assuming the extra 200-500 feet of snivel from a slider mod would be kept in consideration during tracking and pull altitudes) I personnally hurted myself because of a Pilot 7 opening two years ago, I still cannot walk without crutches since then, it hit my spinal cord, while I opened in normal position , body flat. Doctors told me I was lucky that it did not cut the column, but I do not have this feeling when I read that I am not the first to experience this situation with this parachute... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carrier louis paul 0 #39 October 26, 2021 On 10/18/2021 at 10:00 PM, Unstable said: Yes, I have repaired 2x pilots (a 188 and a 210) this year alone for hard opening that broke lines, line attachment points and blew out portions of the tail. One I repaired myself, one ended up with a completely cracked rib and I sent that to the factory, and it was almost $800 in repairs. The common denominator in both of these were packers who use the new(?) methods of bagging the Top of the canopy first and then the fold to lock the slider in last. This method, if not done extremely carefully, results in the packer essentially shoving the slider back into the deployment bag. I attribute those to gross packing error. In all sincerity, I wish Aerodyne and the other manufacturers would put a statement out and discourage that method of bagging. I personnally used the regular method of bagging, and the opening shock was so severe what it happened in one second and was transmitted to my body near the junction of the vertical and thoracic spin, a forward flexion of my head and neck occured and had considerable biomecanical signifiance, the head-neck injuries brought me to wear a neck brace at all times for 14 months, while the Icon parachute harness induces a compression of the lombar and thoracic spins which affected the cervical and thoracic spins so much , mild cranio-cerebral trauma : Glasgow score greater than 13 due to a force directly applied to the head transmitted to the brain. The "whiplash" the brain stumbles forward, then it was back against the cranium brought me : unconsiousness and post-trauatic amnesia during 24 hours, a transient focal neurological deficite and altered mental state ll the time of the accident with dizziness and disorientation, thanks Aerodyne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #40 October 26, 2021 55 minutes ago, carrier louis paul said: I personnally used the regular method of bagging, and the opening shock was so severe what it happened in one second and was transmitted to my body near the junction of the vertical and thoracic spin, a forward flexion of my head and neck occured and had considerable biomecanical signifiance, the head-neck injuries brought me to wear a neck brace at all times for 14 months, while the Icon parachute harness induces a compression of the lombar and thoracic spins which affected the cervical and thoracic spins so much , mild cranio-cerebral trauma : Glasgow score greater than 13 due to a force directly applied to the head transmitted to the brain. The "whiplash" the brain stumbles forward, then it was back against the cranium brought me : unconsiousness and post-trauatic amnesia during 24 hours, a transient focal neurological deficite and altered mental state ll the time of the accident with dizziness and disorientation, thanks Aerodyne Can you explain how Icon container caused more damage ? . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #41 October 26, 2021 Most likely because he’s likely one of the Icon-bashers. I believe Icons also cause bad breath and erectile disfunction. Wendy P. 5 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #42 October 27, 2021 20 hours ago, carrier louis paul said: I personnally used the regular method of bagging, and the opening shock was so severe what it happened in one second and was transmitted to my body near the junction of the vertical and thoracic spin, a forward flexion of my head and neck occured and had considerable biomecanical signifiance, the head-neck injuries brought me to wear a neck brace at all times for 14 months, while the Icon parachute harness induces a compression of the lombar and thoracic spins which affected the cervical and thoracic spins so much , mild cranio-cerebral trauma : Glasgow score greater than 13 due to a force directly applied to the head transmitted to the brain. The "whiplash" the brain stumbles forward, then it was back against the cranium brought me : unconsiousness and post-trauatic amnesia during 24 hours, a transient focal neurological deficite and altered mental state ll the time of the accident with dizziness and disorientation, thanks Aerodyne Ah, thanks! I've been saving my popcorn for you to weigh in on this thread. Did any unidentified metal bits fall out of the canopy during opening by any chance? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IJskonijn 45 #43 October 27, 2021 On 10/19/2021 at 12:57 AM, Jyadz said: Can you explain more on this method of packing? Are you referring to the reverse S fold? That sure sounds like the reverse S-fold technique. The only advantage I've ever seen with that technique is that it's 'easier' to bag a brand-new slippery canopy that way. But given the lack of care with which people stuff it all in, I'm not surprised that it occasionally leads to slider displacement and adventurous openings. Especially since the same people are more likely to not care enough to put the canopy down gently after flaking, but let it fall to the ground while keeping the lines sorta tight... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #44 October 27, 2021 1 hour ago, IJskonijn said: That sure sounds like the reverse S-fold technique. The only advantage I've ever seen with that technique is that it's 'easier' to bag a brand-new slippery canopy that way. But given the lack of care with which people stuff it all in, I'm not surprised that it occasionally leads to slider displacement and adventurous openings. Fair enough. Although if someone went to the reverse S-fold because they have difficulty packing , if they pack the normal way -- everything in a double S-folded stack before bagging -- they might well tend to lose control and and have the bottom of the canopy "squirt" out of the whole stack, again messing up the slider placement. But I'm sure we'll agree that either way, one has to control the slider at the bottom of the canopy. (I've got a couple thousand jumps on sub-100 crossbraced canopies and I prefer the reverse S-fold. Still easier than trying to control the full stack, especially on a canopy that is short from bottom to top.) But back to Pilots, which like almost any ZP canopy, seem to be able to slam people in rare instances... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #45 October 27, 2021 2 hours ago, IJskonijn said: That sure sounds like the reverse S-fold technique. The only advantage I've ever seen with that technique is that it's 'easier' to bag a brand-new slippery canopy that way. But given the lack of care with which people stuff it all in, I'm not surprised that it occasionally leads to slider displacement and adventurous openings. Especially since the same people are more likely to not care enough to put the canopy down gently after flaking, but let it fall to the ground while keeping the lines sorta tight... Sorry, I just got back in, yes the 'Reverse S Fold' is the technique I am referring to. I am not a fan. The regular method does a better job of pinning the slider in place, up against the stop. If you watch a person do the Reverse S fold, any loss of control of the bagging process and the slider is moved down and out of position. I always teach to do a regular S-fold, pin the slider on the first fold in the body of the canopy, and use that as a point of control through the bagging process. I think manufacturers should be discouraging the reverse S fold whenever possible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #46 October 4, 2022 (edited) On 10/17/2021 at 4:13 PM, riggerrob said: No. I have never seen any9one injured by an Aerodyne Pilot's opening-shock. I do know two people who literally femured from slammer openings on Pilot canopies. It caused both of them to give up the sport. I had a wicked slammer myself on a 210 Pilot that wrecked the canopy, even damaged the risers. Had to chop it. Fortunately I didn't break any bones, though I was bruised from my neck down to my knees. Lines were Spectra. Aerodyne said the canopy was totaled and they gave me a sweet deal on a brand new 188, which never gave me any problems. Also owned a ZPX 188 Pilot with no problems. I've always done my own packing and after the slammer I religiously checked that my slider grommets were all the way up 2 or 3 times while packing. Skydiving's a dangerous sport - you pays yer money and takes yer chances. Edited October 4, 2022 by tbrown 3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base615 77 #47 October 6, 2022 I jumped a Pilot a few times when I came back from a long break and got absolutely walloped on one of them resulting in some pretty full on bruising. I've occasionally been slammed by all sorts of parachutes though, it happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bdb2004 28 #48 October 6, 2022 I got slammed by my Pilot 188 a couple of weekends ago. But, I pitched head low, and I had done a really sloppy pack job that I knew was pretty sketchy. So yeah, that one was on me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davenuk 8 #49 October 10, 2022 a mate had a snappy opening on a pilot 150 yesterday, he's had the canopy from new, put a few hundred jumps on it. it was hard enough to snap one of the elastic zip retainers on his wingsuit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites