Stupid firearm accident thread

[gowlerk 2,246]

I've been leaving this mostly alone for a while now. Busy summer and all. But this just popped up on the CNN front page. Not at the top because, well, a 3 year old dying of a self inflicted gunshot wound just isn't really news in America. I mean, it happens all the time right? But this one got a little special notice because......it happened during his birthday party.

https://us.cnn.com/2020/10/25/us/3-year-old-dies-birthday-gunshot-trnd/index.html

Ts and Ps of course..."Our thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends of this tragic accident," the sheriff's office said in the release.

 

[Westerly 61]

play stupid games win stupid prizes. hold the parents accountable. your kid dies becasue he got a hold of your gun, you go to prison for negligent homicide. pretty simple case really.

[gowlerk 2,246]

8 minutes ago, Westerly said:

play stupid games win stupid prizes. hold the parents accountable. your kid dies becasue he got a hold of your gun, you go to prison for negligent homicide. pretty simple case really.

True, America needs more prisoners to keep the corporate prison profits up anyway.

[Westerly 61]

17 hours ago, gowlerk said:

True, America needs more prisoners to keep the corporate prison profits up anyway.

You dont think negligence resulting in someone's death is severe enough to warrant prison? There arent many crimes more serious than that.

[gowlerk 2,246]

1 minute ago, Westerly said:

You dont think negligence resulting in someone's death is severe enough to warrant prison? There arent many crimes more serious than that.

I can think of better ways to reduce the death toll from firearms among American toddlers. Which is the point of the thread.

[Westerly 61]

Just now, gowlerk said:

I can think of better ways to reduce the death toll from firearms among American toddlers. Which is the point of the thread.

Sure, but prison is not about teaching lessons, it's about handing out consequences. If you end up in prison, the time for learning is long gone.

[lippy 918]

10 minutes ago, Westerly said:

Sure, but prison is not about teaching lessons, it's about handing out consequences. If you end up in prison, the time for learning is long gone.

I don't disagree, but if people were considering consequences in the first place, and the consequence of their kid being dead didn't make them second-guess their gun storage in the first place, the prospect of jail probably ain't gonna make them reconsider.  

[gowlerk 2,246]

57 minutes ago, Westerly said:

Sure, but prison is not about teaching lessons, it's about handing out consequences. If you end up in prison, the time for learning is long gone.

Hummm.....you seem to think that somehow along the the way i have disagreed with you. I have not. But again, punishment is not the point, and deterrence is not the point. That fact that guns are so pervasive in America that toddlers shooting themselves and each other is a regular thing is the point. Get it?

[billvon 3,063]

1 hour ago, Westerly said:

Sure, but prison is not about teaching lessons, it's about handing out consequences.

I don't really think there are any parents out there who are going to think "you know, I'm fine if my five year old blows his brains all over my wall.  But I don't want to go to JAIL!"

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

53 minutes ago, lippy said:

I don't disagree, but if people were considering consequences in the first place, and the consequence of their kid being dead didn't make them second-guess their gun storage in the first place, the prospect of jail probably ain't gonna make them reconsider.  

 

Just now, billvon said:

I don't really think there are any parents out there who are going to think "you know, I'm fine if my five year old blows his brains all over my wall.  But I don't want to go to JAIL!"

They think it 'won't happen to them'
They think their kids wouldn't do that.

They think the gun is in a safe place.

Or...

They simply don't think.

[lippy 918]

10 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

 

They think it 'won't happen to them'
They think their kids wouldn't do that.

They think the gun is in a safe place.

Or...

They simply don't think.

I'm going to go with 'E - All of the above'.

[gowlerk 2,246]

7 minutes ago, lippy said:

I'm going to go with 'E - All of the above'.

It is simply Murphy's law. What can go wrong will go wrong.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

15 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

It is simply Murphy's law. What can go wrong will go wrong.

Oh yeah.

Rule #1 for gun owners with kids:

Your kids know there are guns in the house.
Your kids know where they are. 
Your kids are interested in them (forbidden fruit rule).

There are ways to properly secure them. 

But just 'hiding them' in a 'good spot' is really foolish.

[wmw999 2,517]

49 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

 

They think it 'won't happen to them'
They think their kids wouldn't do that.

They think the gun is in a safe place.

Or...

They simply don't think.

They’re like two-thirds or skydivers, who would never make x mistake, or who are way above average canopy pilots. 
Wendy P. 

[gowlerk 2,246]

9 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Oh yeah.

Rule #1 for gun owners with kids:

Your kids know there are guns in the house.
Your kids know where they are. 
Your kids are interested in them (forbidden fruit rule).

There are ways to properly secure them. 

But just 'hiding them' in a 'good spot' is really foolish.

I know that guns and gun rights are important to you. I don't really understand why though, even though I do appreciate them as fine machines and even as tools when needed. In my life most of the people I know find that the easiest way to keep guns away from their children is to just not have any in the house. But a few people do have them and yes, they are secured in a gun safe separately from the ammo.

[kallend 2,106]

https://www.fox13now.com/news/national-news/boy-dies-after-shooting-himself-during-elementary-school-zoom-class

 

11-year-old boy dies after shooting himself during Zoom class

[JoeWeber 2,810]

On 8/10/2020 at 12:09 PM, kallend said:

The gap between the poor and the not-poor has increased almost monotonically since Reagan introduced,  and subsequent GOP administrations have embraced Voodoo Economics.

Are there "almost" monotonic functions? I'm pretty sure Reagan wasn't almost.

[ryoder 1,590]

3 more people too stupid to ever be allowed to touch firearms:

https://www.yourcentralvalley.com/news/crime/thought-it-would-be-fun-men-shooting-each-other-with-rubber-bullets-clovis-man-accidentally-killed-with-buckshot-round/

[billeisele 130]

There are plenty or reliable statistics that show that the root cause is not guns.

61% of gun deaths are suicide. A huge percent of homicides are kids in poverty areas in only 127 cities that hold 25% of the population. Handguns are used in 64% of gun deaths. Rifles are used in 2%. Shotguns in 2%. Sources are FBI & CDC.

In the UK guns were banned in 1997. By 2007 the violence rate increased 77% to 2,034 per 100,000 people, that's 2 per minute. The primary weapon is a kitchen knife. In the US it's 466 per 100,000.  Sources BBC and UK News

Sixty percent of convicted felons state that they would not mess with an armed person. Handguns are the primary self-defense weapon for females. Females use a weapon approximately 200,000 times annually to defend themselves. Let's not reduce guns and increase sexual assault. Sources DOJ, FBI and CDC

In states where concealed carry is legal the violent crime rates are reduced 3-9%. With one exception, all US school mass shootings have occurred in states that don't allow concealed carry. Three of the six worst school shootings occurred in Europe where guns are severely restricted. Sources Kleck & Gertz, Wall Street Journal and USA Today

Armed Citizens compared to police: there are 800X more gun-owning citizens than police, error rate - citizens 2% police 11%, criminals killed - citizens 1,527 police 606. Sources Bureau of Labor, Newsweek, The Examiner, studies by Marc Gertz and Gary Kleck

In 1982 Kennesaw GA passed a law requiring all households to be armed. Crime was reduced 89% as compared to 10.4% in GA. It remains 85% below the national average. Sources Gary Kleck and GA crime stats

As long as ignorant people keep using the term "assault rifle" and AR-14, nothing changes. Education is needed.

Until we understand and address the root cause nothing will change. It's proven that banning guns doesn't work. Let's start with something no one can argue about. The lack of mental health resources and addressing poverty are not new issues.

[Phil1111 1,149]

3 hours ago, billeisele said:

There are plenty or reliable statistics that show that the root cause is not guns.

61% of gun deaths are suicide. A huge percent of homicides are kids in poverty areas in only 127 cities that hold 25% of the population. Handguns are used in 64% of gun deaths. Rifles are used in 2%. Shotguns in 2%. Sources are FBI & CDC.

In the UK guns were banned in 1997. By 2007 the violence rate increased 77% to 2,034 per 100,000 people, that's 2 per minute. The primary weapon is a kitchen knife. In the US it's 466 per 100,000.  Sources BBC and UK News

Sixty percent of convicted felons state that they would not mess with an armed person. Handguns are the primary self-defense weapon for females. Females use a weapon approximately 200,000 times annually to defend themselves. Let's not reduce guns and increase sexual assault. Sources DOJ, FBI and CDC

In states where concealed carry is legal the violent crime rates are reduced 3-9%. With one exception, all US school mass shootings have occurred in states that don't allow concealed carry. Three of the six worst school shootings occurred in Europe where guns are severely restricted. Sources Kleck & Gertz, Wall Street Journal and USA Today

Armed Citizens compared to police: there are 800X more gun-owning citizens than police, error rate - citizens 2% police 11%, criminals killed - citizens 1,527 police 606. Sources Bureau of Labor, Newsweek, The Examiner, studies by Marc Gertz and Gary Kleck

In 1982 Kennesaw GA passed a law requiring all households to be armed. Crime was reduced 89% as compared to 10.4% in GA. It remains 85% below the national average. Sources Gary Kleck and GA crime stats

As long as ignorant people keep using the term "assault rifle" and AR-14, nothing changes. Education is needed.

Until we understand and address the root cause nothing will change. It's proven that banning guns doesn't work. Let's start with something no one can argue about. The lack of mental health resources and addressing poverty are not new issues.

"Education is needed", yes. Your education. "The lack of mental health resources and addressing poverty are not new issues." The US is not a poor country. The US has no worse a mental health situation than many other developed western countries. So whats your explanation for the misuse of guns, gun crimes and suicides.

You can load this tidbit in your revolver of something you learned today. "A mandatory gun ownership law in Kennesaw, Georgia, caused the town's crime rate to plummet. Snopes... Mostly False.

[billeisele 130]

10 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

"Education is needed", yes. Your education. "The lack of mental health resources and addressing poverty are not new issues." The US is not a poor country. The US has no worse a mental health situation than many other developed western countries. So whats your explanation for the misuse of guns, gun crimes and suicides.

You can load this tidbit in your revolver of something you learned today. "A mandatory gun ownership law in Kennesaw, Georgia, caused the town's crime rate to plummet. Snopes... Mostly False.

Perfect response. Exactly perfect. You seem to be trying to draw some kind of conclusion but never get there.

Focus on one miniscule thing, while ignoring the other items. No need to check any further since Snopes is the gold label for all facts. Or is it no ability to think about what occurred in the minds of the criminals when they heard that this law was passed. They didn't check Snopes to find out the details. The criminals simply didn't commit crimes in that area because they deemed it to risky. Criminals do not like confrontation where they risk getting hurt.

My unresearched explanations, which makes them my opinion, not facts, are: 

- misuse - too many idiots. And we know that laws do not stop idiots. Idiots leave loaded guns in places that kids and other untrained individuals can get them. Idiots text and drive. Idiots smoke and get lung cancer. Idiots drink and drive. And the list goes on. Last week in Ohio, during a deer hunt, a 63 year old father shot at a moving bush and killed his 28 year old son. He's an idiot. He had years of experience and should have known to identify the target before pulling the trigger. His son was an experienced hunter and didn't have on the required orange clothing. Not good.

- gun crimes - because they are criminals and didn't have to use a knife or some other weapon like they do in the UK. Lack of access to guns does not deter crime, it just changes the weapon. But it does leave the victim somewhat defenseless or less able to defend themselves.

- suicides - because it's quick, easy and it works. Firearms, poison and suffocation are the top three methods accounting for 93% of suicides. For men over 65 a gun is used 77% of the time. Source CDC. Not having a gun probably would stop some suicides but there are far better ways to reduce suicides than by depriving the other 99.98% of the population the right of self-protection, recreation and hunting. You know, like the 200,000+/- women that annually use a gun to protect themselves.

 

 

[Phil1111 1,149]

9 hours ago, billeisele said:

Perfect response. Exactly perfect. You seem to be trying to draw some kind of conclusion but never get there....

With all the safety that guns bring to America it should be the safest place on earth.

'They're not forgotten': America's other epidemic killed 41,000 people this year

"CHICAGO – In a downtown plaza typically filled with the smell of bratwurst and shoppers bustling among Christmas stalls, a different kind of tree illuminates the solemn square this holiday season: a black cloth tree bearing the names of 672 Chicagoans who were fatally shot in 2020....Americans are also remembering the more than 41,000 people who died in gun violence this year. "

As compared to the 2430 US troops killed in all military operations in Afghanistan.

You seem to build straw houses without roofs.

[billeisele 130]

3 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

With all the safety that guns bring to America it should be the safest place on earth.

'They're not forgotten': America's other epidemic killed 41,000 people this year

"CHICAGO – In a downtown plaza typically filled with the smell of bratwurst and shoppers bustling among Christmas stalls, a different kind of tree illuminates the solemn square this holiday season: a black cloth tree bearing the names of 672 Chicagoans who were fatally shot in 2020....Americans are also remembering the more than 41,000 people who died in gun violence this year. "

As compared to the 2430 US troops killed in all military operations in Afghanistan.

You seem to build straw houses without roofs.

You are hilarious. Drawing credible conclusions and analogies is not your forte.

Chicago has a problem of their own making. Just look at their restrictive gun laws. A great example of why restricting law abiding citizens from having guns does not work.

300 - 400 million gun owners. If there was a gun problem you would know it.

Gun owners and concealed weapons carriers are safer than those that aren't. Let's not forget the 200,000 women that annually defend themselves with a gun. Let's also not forget the number of times someone with a gun kills a criminal. That stopped how many more sheep from being victimized?

Guns are not the root problem and taking them away from law abiding citizens won't solve anything. 

[kallend 2,106]

9 hours ago, billeisele said:

 

My unresearched explanations, which makes them my opinion, not facts, are: 

-

 

 

Your opinions appear to make sense until you realize that the experiences of the entire of western Europe, and of Canada, Australia and other culturally similar nations show them to be complete nonsense.

[JoeWeber 2,810]

13 minutes ago, billeisele said:

You are hilarious. Drawing credible conclusions and analogies is not your forte.

Chicago has a problem of their own making. Just look at their restrictive gun laws. A great example of why restricting law abiding citizens from having guns does not work.

300 - 400 million gun owners. If there was a gun problem you would know it.

Gun owners and concealed weapons carriers are safer than those that aren't. Let's not forget the 200,000 women that annually defend themselves with a gun. Let's also not forget the number of times someone with a gun kills a criminal. That stopped how many more sheep from being victimized?

Guns are not the root problem and taking them away from law abiding citizens won't solve anything. 

Bill, there may be 400 million guns owned in America but it's actually like 100 million gun owners, I think. Also, your 200,000 women who annually defend themselves with guns, and I'm assuming that it's not the same women each year, has to be way off.