Stupid firearm accident thread

[SkyDekker 1,465]

3 hours ago, Coreece said:

I know you're not interested in stats and facts,  so I guess you can just attribute that decline to all those thoughts and prayers you guys keep talking about.

So, let's delve into those facts a little more.

Gun suicide and homicide continued to rise during that time period. I wonder what could be the difference between an accidental death and a suicide? Well, that is completely up to the discretion of the medical examiner. So, it really isn't quite as simple as just looking at the number. 

Lastly, the states with the most guns and fewest laws continue to have the most accidental shooting deaths. This might just suggest that gun regulation is effective.

[billvon 2,991]

>Lastly, the states with the most guns and fewest laws continue to have the most accidental shooting deaths. 

And the opposite is true as well.  From the Salt Lake Tribune:

===================================================

Suicide rates in Utah currently outnumber homicides and access to guns is a driving factor, according to a new report

By Benjamin Wood

Gun ownership is common in Utah, with nearly one-half of all households — and even more in the state’s rural areas — possessing a firearm, according to a report presented Wednesday to state lawmakers.

But while a parent might purchase a gun with the hope or intent of protecting their children from an attacker, Rep. Steve Eliason said, it is considerably more likely that a child will use that weapon to take his or her own life. . .

Suicide rates in Utah have been increasing since 2008 and currently outnumber homicides by a ratio of 8 to 1, according to the report, which was conducted by researchers from Harvard’s T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

And the overwhelming majority (87 percent) of firearm suicides are fatal, compared to low mortality rates for suicide attempts involving drugs or sharp instruments like knives, the report found.

“If a proportion of Utahns who would otherwise attempt suicide with a firearm were prevented from using a gun, there would likely be fewer suicide deaths,” the report states, “even if those who attempted [suicide] substituted another method.”

=============================================================

[riggerrob 643]

On 6/12/2019 at 10:12 AM, Coreece said:

This is why it's so hard to have a conversation with you like a normal person, because you ignore everything previously discussed.  It's like talking to a bot.

Yup!

Gowlerk made up his mind - on the subject of American gun ownership - decades ago, so don't waste your time telling him anything new.

Poke the next 30 million Canadians and you will find that most agree with Gowlerk.

When you argue with Gowlerk, you argue with an entire country that fears American gun-owners.

[riggerrob 643]

On 6/12/2019 at 9:22 AM, Coreece said:

And there are those that think banning buns .......

________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

The other day I was in my favourite restaurant when the waitress asked me if I would like a bun. I replied "You folks have great buns!'

As she wandered off, I mumbled something about "..... tasty bread rolls too."

[riggerrob 643]

Amazing how this thread drifted from accidental gun deaths to abortions.

I thought the two subjects were mutually exclusive.

I grew up in Quebec when (1950s to 1970s) they kept dragging Doctor Henry Morgentaler into court and eventually acquited him of performing illegal abortions.

My attitudes towards abortions were confirmed by J.P. Forest who used to work as a body-guard for Vancouver's busiest abortion doctor. Contrary to right-wing propaganda, the majority of patients were married women who already two or three healthy children. Since their current pregnancy included a birth defect, they opted to abort rather than raise a disabled child or suffer the agony of a childhood mortality from complications. 

 

On the subject of "fathers" having a say in cancelling abortions ... Sure! As long as they post a $250,000. bond to cover the cost of raising that child. The bond should equal the cost of raising and educating a child until they graduate college. 

[timski 80]

21 hours ago, Coreece said:

There were 824 unintentional gun deaths in 1999, and 482 in 2015.  "Taking into account population growth over that time, the rate fell 48%."

"Experts attribute the decline to a mix of gun safety education programs, state laws regulating gun storage in homes and a drop in the number of households that have guns."

I know you're not interested in stats and facts,  so I guess you can just attribute that decline to all those thoughts and prayers you guys keep talking about.

In Canada however, they just keep happening over and over and again and again without any improvement over the last 5 years or so.  You guys may want to start doing something about that.

 

I do believe I've put my finger on the issue with our northern neighbors and there "problem" with "The Greatest Super Power" on the planet. Part of it is being shadowed by the U.S., we get it. The other part, Penis Envy. 

I mean, I get it. It must be hard some days looking at EVERYTHING we have, compared to what you don't. 

Try living one day at a time and being thankful for what you do have. Life is wonderful, enjoy it. 

 

My only envy toward the north is the leadership that governs you and you legalized it before we did!  

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

15 hours ago, riggerrob said:

a $250,000. bond to cover the cost of raising that child. The bond should equal the cost of raising and educating a child until they graduate college. 

Hi Rob,

Any parent who thinks they can raise a child & put them thru college for $250,000 probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy & a few similar characters.

Jerry Baumchen

[gowlerk 2,191]

15 hours ago, timski said:

I mean, I get it. It must be hard some days looking at EVERYTHING we have, compared to what you don't. 

Actually, living beside the USA is pretty cool. We get to go to big southern DZs, and visit Disneyland, and Vegas and all the good stuff. Then we can go home and not worry about health insurance and gun violence. Life is good for Canadians.

[gowlerk 2,191]

Here is a minor one,

https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/norfolk/norfolk-police-13-year-old-boy-shot-while-playing-with-gun-was-preventable-incident/

And a larger one:

https://www.wishtv.com/news/crime-watch-8/impd-1-critically-injured-in-accidental-shooting-on-the-east-side/2078678111

Edited June 16, 2019 by gowlerk

[kallend 2,027]

22 hours ago, timski said:

I do believe I've put my finger on the issue with our northern neighbors and there "problem" with "The Greatest Super Power" on the planet. Part of it is being shadowed by the U.S., we get it. The other part, Penis Envy. 

I mean, I get it. It must be hard some days looking at EVERYTHING we have, compared to what you don't. 

Try living one day at a time and being thankful for what you do have. Life is wonderful, enjoy it. 

 

My only envy toward the north is the leadership that governs you and you legalized it before we did!  

Owning a gun in compensation for penile inadequacy is well documented going back well before  Freud's time.

"The association of the penis with weapons is ancient. The shape and function of firearms, from the earliest muskets to the most advanced rocket launcher, remains phallic. In the army there was for years the standing joke, directed at new recruits, about the difference between “your gun” and “your weapon.” Terms for ejaculation often include references to “shooting,” and a man with a lack of viable sperm is said to be “firing blanks.” So it is not unreasonable to see a connection between American men’s experience of their own diminished virility and the proliferation of firearms in American society."  William Settles, Ph.D. 

[Coreece 190]

9 hours ago, gowlerk said:

we can go home and not worry about health insurance and gun violence. Life is good for Canadians.

Tell that to these people:

Toronto Shooting During NBA Victory Celebration

Most Recent Mass Shooting at Church in British Colombia, CA

Canada's Gun-Related Homicide Rate Hits Its Highest Level in 25 Years

Again and again and over and over. . .

[Coreece 190]

On 6/14/2019 at 8:53 PM, billvon said:

>Lastly, the states with the most guns and fewest laws continue to have the most accidental shooting deaths. 

And the opposite is true as well.  From the Salt Lake Tribune:

===================================================

Suicide rates in Utah

So he's talking about accidents and you're talking about suicides.

Part of the problem is that people seem to mesh everything together and expect a few broad solutions to fix the entire problem.

Everything has to be addressed accordingly:

Rural/suburban suicides/mass shootings vs. inner city violence

Rural shotguns/rifles vs. inner city handguns

Hunting accidents vs domestic accidents

Adult accidents vs child accidents

Federal Issues vs. State Issues vs. County Issues vs. City Issues vs. Neighborhood issues

etc., etc., etc. . .

 

[Coreece 190]

On 6/14/2019 at 7:55 PM, SkyDekker said:

I wonder what could be the difference between an accidental death and a suicide? Well, that is completely up to the discretion of the medical examiner. So, it really isn't quite as simple as just looking at the number. 

So what's Everytown's reasoning for denying the forensic science other than the number's not fitting their narrative?  And is the margin of error large enough to affect the reliability of those numbers?  And if forensic M.D's have been so incompetent over the last 20 years, how many suicides did they mistakenly list as unintentional? Or is it all just some conspiracy?

Also, there is more to determining a suicide than just examining a dead body.

 

On 6/14/2019 at 7:55 PM, SkyDekker said:

Lastly, the states with the most guns and fewest laws continue to have the most accidental shooting deaths.

Didn't you just say that's it's not quite as simple as just looking at the numbers?  Is it because of the quantity of the laws, or the quality/type of law, among other factors?

 

On 6/14/2019 at 7:55 PM, SkyDekker said:

This might just suggest that gun regulation is effective.

I just posted how the decline in unintentional shooting deaths has been attributed to gun safety programs and state laws, but you STILL ignored that part of the post and denied the science behind the numbers, which is pretty much what the article is talking about:

"Still, neither side of the gun debate talks much about the progress that has been made."

[kallend 2,027]

2 hours ago, Coreece said:

I just posted how the decline in unintentional shooting deaths has been attributed to gun safety programs and state laws, but you STILL ignored that part of the post and denied the science behind the numbers, which is pretty much what the article is talking about:

 

Amid last year’s financial crunch, the NRA cut funds for gun safety training, a key mission spelled out in the NRA charter. Spending for safety education dropped by nearly a quarter from 2017 to 2018, from $42.6 million to $32.7 million.

However, the execs continued to spend freely on their luxury lifestyles.

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

Amid last year’s financial crunch, the NRA cut funds for gun safety training, a key mission spelled out in the NRA charter. Spending for safety education dropped by nearly a quarter from 2017 to 2018, from $42.6 million to $32.7 million.

However, the execs continued to spend freely on their luxury lifestyles.

I'm open to a different perspective, but if we're going to rely solely on the NRA to provide gun safety training, then we're in trouble.  Being that I'm not a member, I doubt they'd care much about how they're not spending my money.  Maybe if you join they'll listen to what you have to say about their lifestyles.

Personally I'm grateful for any funds they're willing to provide, whether it's 5, 10, 15, 30, 40 or 50 million.  It's probably more than any whinging gun control group gives for safety training. 

Edited June 16, 2019 by Coreece

[billvon 2,991]

12 hours ago, Coreece said:

Everything has to be addressed accordingly:

Rural/suburban suicides/mass shootings vs. inner city violence

Rural shotguns/rifles vs. inner city handguns

Hunting accidents vs domestic accidents

Adult accidents vs child accidents

Federal Issues vs. State Issues vs. County Issues vs. City Issues vs. Neighborhood issues

Yes.  You can parse it almost indefinitely.  And what of toddlers who kill as opposed to adolescents who kill?

There is, however, some benefit in placing one's efforts into reducing deaths, rather than spending one's energy in making arguments that such deaths don't count because they are not of the right category.

[Coreece 190]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

And what of toddlers who kill as opposed to adolescents who kill?

Toddlers and adolescents showing off their parents guns would probably fall under proper storage/gun safety solutions.  The 13-17 year old gang bangers in Chicago would fall under inner city violence that calls for early violence prevention/education solutions recommended by the CDC.

 

1 hour ago, billvon said:

spending one's energy in making arguments that such deaths don't count because they are not of the right category.

I thought we were done talking about abortion.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Coreece

[gowlerk 2,191]

On 6/14/2019 at 11:19 AM, Coreece said:

Not necessarily, as stated multiple times, the decline in the US has happened despite nearly doubling our guns over the last 30 years or so.

Tell it to these families.

https://nypost.com/2019/03/19/dozens-of-young-kids-were-victims-of-accidental-shooting-deaths-in-2018/

[Coreece 190]

22 hours ago, Coreece said:

On 6/16/2019 at 5:04 AM, gowlerk said:

we can go home and not worry about health insurance and gun violence. Life is good for Canadians.

Tell that to these people:

Toronto Shooting During NBA Victory Celebration

Most Recent Mass Shooting at Church in British Colombia, CA

Canada's Gun-Related Homicide Rate Hits Its Highest Level in 25 Years

 

17 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

On 6/14/2019 at 4:19 PM, Coreece said:

Not necessarily, as stated multiple times, the decline in the US has happened despite nearly doubling our guns over the last 30 years or so.

Tell it to these families.

https://nypost.com/2019/03/19/dozens-of-young-kids-were-victims-of-accidental-shooting-deaths-in-2018/

While it wouldn't provide much comfort, at least I would be factually accurate.  The rate did drop by nearly 50% despite nearly doubling the amount of guns. (maybe even more.)

You on the other hand would be lying, or at least providing a false sense of security by saying that Canadians don't have to worry about gun violence given the recent mass shootings and reaching a 25 year high for gun homicides in Canada.

 

[normiss 798]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Tell it to these families.

https://nypost.com/2019/03/19/dozens-of-young-kids-were-victims-of-accidental-shooting-deaths-in-2018/

Those families should be proud of their children for sacrificing their lives for our freedumbs.

[gowlerk 2,191]

28 minutes ago, Coreece said:

You on the other hand would be lying, or at least providing a false sense of security by saying that Canadians don't have to worry about gun violence given the recent mass shootings and reaching a 25 year high for gun homicides in Canada.

Given the number of excess killing machines spilling over the border from the USA, and the lack of a "wall" if last year was a 25 year high, next year will probably be a 26 year high. The gun murder rate in Canada is still about 20 to 25% of the USA rate.

[Coreece 190]

6 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Given the number of excess killing machines spilling over the border from the USA, and the lack of a "wall" if last year was a 25 year high, next year will probably be a 26 year high.

Blaming everyone else and failing to take responsibility for your own problems is not going to help the situation. 

6 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The gun murder rate in Canada is still about 20 to 25% of the USA rate.

But wait,  you've said that you weren't interested in the stats and debating how many gun deaths is too many.  Now, suddenly the numbers matter to you.  Funny how that works, isn't it?

[gowlerk 2,191]

15 minutes ago, Coreece said:

But wait,  you've said that you weren't interested in the stats and debating how many gun deaths is too many.  Now, suddenly the numbers matter to you.  Funny how that works, isn't it?

Merely discussing the "false sense of security" you say Canadians (me) have. Risk is relative, we choose to keep the level of killing machines lower than in your nation. That gives us a lower level of apprehension. It makes our police a lot less trigger happy as well. Been to the local Costco lately? Good place to get shot I hear.

 

Edit, this just in. Dangerous guns causing injury in Canada:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/doctors-warn-about-risk-of-eye-injuries-from-nerf-toy-guns-1.4469250

Edited June 17, 2019 by gowlerk

[kallend 2,027]

11 hours ago, Coreece said:

Toddlers and adolescents showing off their parents guns would probably fall under proper storage/gun safety solutions.  The 13-17 year old gang bangers in Chicago would fall under inner city violence that calls for early violence prevention/education solutions recommended by the CDC.

 

I thought we were done talking about abortion.

Must explain your confusion between BUNS and GUNS.  Try sticking to the point.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

On 6/16/2019 at 7:52 AM, Coreece said:

Didn't you just say that's it's not quite as simple as just looking at the numbers?  Is it because of the quantity of the laws, or the quality/type of law, among other factors?

Didn't you just argue that the numbers are science and should be taken at face value?

If you want that, then the numbers show that gun regulation is effective.

Can't be half-pregnant.