just one word(regarding the "why zero liability" post)

[danielmaxin 0]

I just want to point out something very clearly:

Since I do sign that waiver it means I ACCEPT whatever is written there....That doesn't mean though that I have to keep my mouth shut and not express a different view about something.In a civilized debate maybe. I just wanted some opinions about the waiver and its content and not about my personal decision to skydive.
And the remark that I should take up golf or bowlling is cheap.

This post turned out to be a mistake and I will rely on face to face talks about this subject later on.

[imthegerm 0]

Good Luck Daniel,

I hope you have some nice skydives up ahead for you. I am sure you will.

I guess you just struck a nerve here.

[popsjumper 2]

Daniel, Daniel...you've been on DZ.com for 6 months...you should know that there are many egos out here wanting to do little more than bust balls. Don't give up on the good ones because of some asshats.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[NWFlyer 2]

Welcome to skydiving. There will be a lot of people who will disagree with you. There will be people who will question your rationale for doing something. There will be things that you will want to take personally that are not personal.

You will need a thick skin. Trust me when I say this, because I have been there, a lot. The best in this sport may not say things to you in a style or manner that you like, but it's often something worth listening to. And if you think that was "uncivilized" debate, stick around here for a while. That was tame.

And you will also need to filter out what's ego-driven b.s. and what's the truth. You've just gotten your first chance. There's some good information in that thread and it sparked what I think was a pretty healthy debate. Don't write off the sport just because you don't agree with how it was said.

No one's angry at your post, or angry at you for posting. They are just asking you to look at things a bit differently and to see the other perspective. That's what you'll get here.

Make your choice to skydive on your own terms, not anyone else's.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[danielmaxin 0]

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Welcome to skydiving. ***


Thank you! I sure felt welcomed :)
Funny thing I delayed my response because I just had my second tandem today. It was great.
I do not mind people saying whatever they want. I was upset by the fact that while I wanted some "techincal" answers , what I got was a "bonfire" kind f reply.
But some answered my questions and thanks for that

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[NewGuy2005 53]

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.In a civilized debate maybe. .

Wrong place for that.

[AggieDave 6]

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Since I do sign that waiver it means I ACCEPT whatever is written there....That doesn't mean though that I have to keep my mouth shut and not express a different view about something

Do a search for Lutz. That is the type of situation that comes to mind when people start asking questions like yours. In those cases people tend to go hands off, don't want to jump with the person, don't want to train the person, don't want to be near the person for fear of getting drug into a lawsuit.

Sure, the release of liability contract has stood up very well in the past, BUT you have to spend money to defend yourself and that contract. Last time I asked a lawyer friend of mine he said that a lawsuit like that would start at about $50k to defend to the fullest.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AFFI 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2280174#2280174

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[popsjumper 2]

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.In a civilized debate maybe. .

Wrong place for that.

That's the problem. Safety and Training SHOULD BE the place for civilized debate and the BS belongs in Bonfire.

Daniel, your OP was spot on.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

Skydivers are people and have their 'hot' buttons where you won't get the clear response you are looking for. (here, it's 99% of the posts).

But most mean well. Most instructors will try to get into your head instead of just demanding that you have to read their minds. Helps to take it both ways when we can.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[bch7773 0]

many people on here feel the need to be brusque and tough because they think it makes them seem tough and cool.

theres nothing wrong with discussing the waivers.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[marks 0]

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many people on here feel the need to be brusque and tough because they think it makes them seem tough and cool.

theres nothing wrong with discussing the waivers.

there is nothing wrong with discussing the waiver, or even questioning it.

but having the believe and the foresight to be "american" and look for someone to blame will ruin this sport.

if I or alot of other instructors/coaches. feel we could be sued, the sport would come to a halt and it would become very dangerous. because we dont want to have to fight in court to prove we are not liable. I have no patience for someone who can't understand that. if you can understand that, sign the waiver and be done with it. if you want to question the waiver, ask a lawyer.

[lawrocket 3]

I'll repost my post to the end of that thread.


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Human error is understable but that applies to the surgeon that cuts you open also. He performs much more complicated tasks than the packer yet he is liable and we all know what malpraxis means.

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I think it interesting that you point to surgeons to compare liability with skydiving. They are apples and oranges. There are huge and very common sense differences.

Let's picture a person who is suffering from appendicitis going to a hospital. This person is immediately greeted with a waiver releasing the surgeon from all liability in the event of a mistake.

That patient is left with two choices: 1) waive liability and get possibly lousy care; or 2) die. It turns out that this really isn't a good policy, and is not something that society would actually benefit from.

On the other hand, you've got an unsafe activity that you want to participate in. The waiver says, "THIS IS UNSAFE AND MAY KILL OR MAIM YOU." Welcome to the world of informed consent. "YOU CAN BE KILLED IN ANY NUMBER OF WAYS AND EVEN THROUGH NEGLIGENCE. YOU GET NO GUARANTEES." You say, "Hmm. They are trying to scare me outta doing this.

You therefore have the choice - sign the waiver and do something that can kill you or not sign the waiver and have a better chance at survival today. See the difference between a doctor and a DZ? Unlike the surgeon example, the power has shifted in that life or death choice. The patient can't reasonably say "no." The prospective jumper can say, "No effing way" and be fine.

You are goddamned RIGHT they are trying to scare you. You waive the risks, and for that they must tell you the risks. How much of a waiver is it if the waiver says, "The risks of skydiving are minimal. Parachutes are fail-safe nowadays, and technology means that the risk is the same as for a Ferris Wheel." A waiver painting a cozy picture doesn't tell you the REAL consequences, and hence it is not an informed waiver for which you provide informed, knowing and intelligent consent.

If you wanna risk death, the risk is yours.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[jsaxton 0]

Dude, relax