Trump, the Great Orator

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

1 hour ago, billvon said:

So stop with the intentional-misunderstanding BS.

Hi Bill,

Good luck with that.

Jerry Baumchen

[turtlespeed 220]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

Then stop employing it.

You know full well that every law out there takes away your rights.  And you support most of those laws.  I am certain, for example, you support laws against rape and murder, even though those laws take away some of your rights.  So stop with the intentional-misunderstanding BS.

 

3 hours ago, jakee said:

Get over yourself. You said something dumb, why not just own it?

 

Your definition of liberty is impossible in the real world - and you've acknowledged that - however you also said "There hasn't been liberty in this country in a long time." as if it had once existed. What did you mean? When did it exist?

So let me get this straight - 

Wanting a carbon balanced world is possible right?

Wrong - 

Do you still wish that was the way it was and strive for it?

Do you think it can ever exist in today's society?  I'll answer that for you - NO!  Yet you still make futile steps in that direction.

[jakee 1,489]

5 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Do you still wish that was the way it was and strive for it?

When was there liberty in the USA?

[RonD1120 62]

5 hours ago, jakee said:

When was there liberty in the USA?

I experienced it on 1 July 2019 and am expecting the same today. I am hoping it still exists on 21 January 2021.

[billvon 2,991]

15 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Wanting a carbon balanced world is possible right?

Of course.   You can want whatever you like.  I suspect, however, you meant to ask "you think a carbon balanced world is possible, right?"  And the answer to that is yes as well.

Quote

Do you still wish that was the way it was and strive for it?

Do you mean - do I wish that we had a carbon balanced world?  Yes.  Can we head in that direction?  Yes, and we are.  Can we get there eventually?  Yes.

Now, to get back to your statements - do you want to repeal laws against murder and rape, so you have more liberty?

[kallend 2,027]

4 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

I experienced it on 1 July 2019 and am expecting the same today. I am hoping it still exists on 21 January 2021.

Are you OK with an authoritarian dictatorship as long as it supports your personal ideals?

[turtlespeed 220]

12 hours ago, jakee said:

When was there liberty in the USA?

Early on - around the founding.

[turtlespeed 220]

2 hours ago, billvon said:

Of course.   You can want whatever you like.  I suspect, however, you meant to ask "you think a carbon balanced world is possible, right?"  And the answer to that is yes as well.

Do you mean - do I wish that we had a carbon balanced world?  Yes.  Can we head in that direction?  Yes, and we are.  Can we get there eventually?  Yes.

Now, to get back to your statements - do you want to repeal laws against murder and rape, so you have more liberty?

Not necessarily - I want a better society that doesn't need those laws.

So I guess in the long run - yes.  

Do you want people to not have to consider their carbon footprint?

 

Edited July 2, 2019 by turtlespeed

[jakee 1,489]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

Early on - around the founding.

During the war? After it?

[turtlespeed 220]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

During the war? After it?

 

1 hour ago, jakee said:

During the war? After it?

That depends on where you stood politically.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

17 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

 

That depends on where you stood politically.

Isn't liberty supposed to mean that where you stand politically doesn't impact one's freedom? Or does your version of liberty mean that one's political views should impact one's freedom?

Or are you just talking out of your ass because you have argued yourself into a corner?

[jakee 1,489]

37 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

 

That depends on where you stood politically.

You're saying liberty existed as long as you held the right political opinions?

 

You get why that's unbelievably stupid, don't you?

[billvon 2,991]

5 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Not necessarily - I want a better society that doesn't need those laws.

Sure.  And I want a better environment that doesn't need any laws to make sure that happens, too.  That would be nice.

But in the meantime, here in reality, you support laws against murder and rape.  Because you know that those do more to protect the rights of victims than they do to restrict the rights of potential rapists and murderers - and the rights of potential victims are more important than the rights of potential rapists.

[turtlespeed 220]

51 minutes ago, billvon said:

Sure.  And I want a better environment that doesn't need any laws to make sure that happens, too.  That would be nice.

But in the meantime, here in reality, you support laws against murder and rape.  Because you know that those do more to protect the rights of victims than they do to restrict the rights of potential rapists and murderers - and the rights of potential victims are more important than the rights of potential rapists.

True - in the mean time I do support most of them. 

[jakee 1,489]

4 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

True - in the mean time I do support most of them. 

So you don't actually want liberty in the real world, and liberty never existed in the nation. Ok then.

[nigel99 472]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

So you don't actually want liberty in the real world, and liberty never existed in the nation. Ok then.

Something I don’t like about online discussions is how when someone clarifies their viewpoint and potentially changes their mind people jump on them. 

Maybe it is because tone is lost in a forum like this, and I’ve got no idea if you’re being nice or snarky to Turtle. 

[jakee 1,489]

3 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Something I don’t like about online discussions is how when someone clarifies their viewpoint and potentially changes their mind people jump on them. 

But he hasn’t said anything to indicate he’s changed his mind, and it’s not exactly a clarification.

 

As far as I can tell he’s attempting to hold two contradictory opinions at the same time. That’s my honest assessment.

[turtlespeed 220]

4 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Something I don’t like about online discussions is how when someone clarifies their viewpoint and potentially changes their mind people jump on them. 

Maybe it is because tone is lost in a forum like this, and I’ve got no idea if you’re being nice or snarky to Turtle. 

Snarky.  Its always snarkiness with Jakee - He's better than those he belittles.  

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

5 hours ago, nigel99 said:

Something I don’t like about online discussions is how when someone clarifies their viewpoint and potentially changes their mind people jump on them. 

Maybe it is because tone is lost in a forum like this, and I’ve got no idea if you’re being nice or snarky to Turtle. 

There's a huge difference between someone who voices (types) an unclear position and later clarifies it, or someone who reconsiders and subsequently changes their mind and someone who posts deliberately obtuse, conflicting and completely unrealistic garbage. And then backpedals to try to cover it up.

The first is 'discussion'. The second is 'trolling'.

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

2 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

someone who posts deliberately obtuse, conflicting and completely unrealistic garbage. And then backpedals to try to cover it up.

Hi Joe,

Now,who could that be?  Hmmmmm,

Jerry Baumchen

[normiss 798]

Trump throwing a military parade for himself despite never serving in the military is a disgrace to all who have served this country.

Disgusting.

[jakee 1,489]

5 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Snarky.  Its always snarkiness with Jakee

Post something that doesn't deserve to be snarked at.

 

Again, you posted that true liberty existed in the USA when possession of it depended on your political leanings. Freedom that depends on political affiliation doesn't sound like liberty to me, it sounds like Stalinism.

 

If you're genuinely trying to clarify things, clarifying that would be a good start.

[billvon 2,991]

16 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

True - in the mean time I do support most of them. 

Cool, I do too.  I am OK with some tradeoffs on liberty when they protect other people's rights (like laws against murder.)

See?  We do have something in common.

[RonD1120 62]

3 hours ago, normiss said:

Trump throwing a military parade for himself despite never serving in the military is a disgrace to all who have served this country.

Disgusting.

I'll bet if you were asked to participate in an exhibition jump during the celebration you would accept the invitation. Wouldn't you?

[nigel99 472]

11 hours ago, jakee said:

But he hasn’t said anything to indicate he’s changed his mind, and it’s not exactly a clarification.

 

As far as I can tell he’s attempting to hold two contradictory opinions at the same time. That’s my honest assessment.

Fair enough. I’ll admit I’ve found it hard to follow his views at times and at times I’m not sure if he’s stirring the pot or genuinely  believed stuff. But for the most part while I usually disagree with his viewpoint, Turtle does seem to be one of a few people capable of genuinely shifting his position following debate on a topic.