Low Turns

[Quake120 0]

After looking at the incident forum and various fatality reports, I'm beginning to notice a lot of people are killed because they try high-performance turns too low to the ground and run into something or lose control. It seems like the number of skydiving deaths per year would decrease by 5 or 10 if these turns did not happen. Are these high performance turns that much fun that it is worth the risk?

...Just my personal thought on this, but when I get to the point where I'm alone under canopy, I don't think I'll be trying any high performance turns for the safety reason, plus I just like hanging out in the air admiring the scenery. No rush to get to the ground. Skydiving is expensive and I want to get my moneys worth on each ride.

[FrogNog 1]

There are also "panic turns". These are similar to when you see someone with car crash injuries who tells you they swerved to avoid a dog and ended up in the ditch.

The are also "didn't know I was that low" regular turns. Turns that are not particularly high-performance (or at least not high-performance compared to the jumper's skill level and the canopy they are flying) but that still are enough to injure or kill if the jumper gets to the ground before completing the turn. Does anyone know why these happen?

Collision-entanglements suck too. These are similar to when someone doesn't successfully avoid the dog in the road and it gets sucked into the engine, causing a flameout, and an unexpected forced landing. (OK, maybe less similarity in this example.)

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[skybytch 273]

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Are these high performance turns that much fun that it is worth the risk?

For those that choose to do them, yes, they are worth the risk.

That's one of the cool things about this sport. To a certain point, you can choose how much risk you're willing to take.

[Quake120 0]

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Are these high performance turns that much fun that it is worth the risk?

That's one of the cool things about this sport. To a certain point, you can choose how much risk you're willing to take.

That is very true. I definitely have accepted the fact that I could die/be seriously injured skydiving, but I don't think I'm going to do anything that would make that more possible than it already is. Like I said before... I like hanging around in the sky, probably because I'm a huge fan of heights and scenery, and quick turns seem to diminish altitude quickly.

Very good point about emergency turns low, and the "I didn't know I was that low" turns.

[BIGUN 1,317]

I'm going to say that it was roughly six years ago that high-performance turns became most popular. At that time, there was no formalized training and the attrition rate then was more than it is now. Some DZ's outlawed them, some (like mine) placed a moratorium on height of intiating a 180 degreee turn at less than 500' (which soon was still too low for the ever newer canopies which could lose 1000' quickly).

Adventurous canopy pilots continued, learned and shared. Over the course of time, formalized training replaced the learn as you go approach. As the result of formalized training, placing recommendations on the downsizing progression, etc. - Swooping has dynamically increased, but the number of fatalities has significantly decreased. If we were having this conversation in 2001, IIRC; we would have been talking about 19 of the 26 fatalities that year being the result of low hook turns.

There are two things that I've noticed about this sport since my first skydive in 1981. The manufacturer's learn and improve safety and the skydivers learn and improve safety. We will probably never eradicate fatalities, but we are always on a path of continuous improvement to reduce them exponentially each year.

As time goes on; you'll hear the saying, "You can do everything right and still die." There's been skydives where everything has gone wrong and people still live. It's just the nature of the sport. We learn, we share and we do our best to keep everyone safe. You've learned early. Take your time, progress slow, keep safety in mind and always ask questions.

Blue Skies...

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jceman 1]

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Are these high performance turns that much fun that it is worth the risk?

That's one of the cool things about this sport. To a certain point, you can choose how much risk you're willing to take.

That is very true. I definitely have accepted the fact that I could die/be seriously injured skydiving, but I don't think I'm going to do anything that would make that more possible than it already is. Like I said before... I like hanging around in the sky, probably because I'm a huge fan of heights and scenery, and quick turns seem to diminish altitude quickly.

Very good point about emergency turns low, and the "I didn't know I was that low" turns.

Emphasis added by me --

Sounds like me until I was in demo mode after 100 or so jumps. While demoing a Sabre I experienced my first true "turfsurf" as we called it then -- I was stoked for days!

After I had a couple hundered jumps on my new canopy, doing fast 90 degree turns to final and enjoying the heck out of the swoops, I tried a 180 hook at Quincy in '98.

I was back in the air a bit over 9 months later (with a shirtload of metal in my right leg) and wasn't quite so eager to do those again.

Moral of this story? Your tastes may change with time/experience, so don't be so sure, just stay safe.

Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money.

Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them?

[Feeblemind 1]

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Are these high performance turns that much fun that it is worth the risk?

That's one of the cool things about this sport. To a certain point, you can choose how much risk you're willing to take.

That is very true. I definitely have accepted the fact that I could die/be seriously injured skydiving, but I don't think I'm going to do anything that would make that more possible than it already is. Like I said before... I like hanging around in the sky, probably because I'm a huge fan of heights and scenery, and quick turns seem to diminish altitude quickly.

Very good point about emergency turns low, and the "I didn't know I was that low" turns.

I said the exact same thing in Febuary 2005 as I was taking AFF and then progressing with my skydiving.

I am still very cautious, but I am increasing the speed of my landings by using front risers. I have had some informal canopy coaching, but I am going to try and attend a professional canopy course sometime this season. After i have obtained profesional canopy coaching I may become more adventurous at a very slow rate (I am old and slow so running out fast landings is tough. I also have a family to support so getting injured is a bad idea).

Good luck, I am glad you are exploring the sport and educating yourself prior to your AFF.


Phil

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[MarkM 0]

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Are these high performance turns that much fun that it is worth the risk?

Flying your canopy can be a lot of fun, it doesn't have to be something that just gets you to the ground. Also, you don't have to be one of those guys flying a highly loaded eliptical to have fun with a canopy too.

It's really good that you're reading the incidents and doing risk assessment though.

[AggieDave 6]

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...Just my personal thought on this, but when I get to the point where I'm alone under canopy, I don't think I'll be trying any high performance turns for the safety reason, plus I just like hanging out in the air admiring the scenery. No rush to get to the ground. Skydiving is expensive and I want to get my moneys worth on each ride.

Yup, I said that right before I got on the plane for my 3rd jump. My 3rd jump was delayed about an hour due to a jumper doing a panic turn and having his canopy land first.

Eventually I learned about high performance canopy flight. Learned about whats involved in that aspect of skydiving. Then I started to learn and push my canopy. Close to 2000 jumps later I'm still learning and still really enjoying high performance canopy flight.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mjosparky 4]

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That is very true. I definitely have accepted the fact that I could die/be seriously injured skydiving, but I don't think I'm going to do anything that would make that more possible than it already is.

How many of the people who died behind a HP landing do you think got up that morning and said "I think I will hook it into the ground today."? They all thought that what they were doing was within their ability until that last few feet.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tbrown 26]

A fair number of people who hook it in aren't even trying to make a high performance turn. A lot of "panic turns", or just plain "stupid turns" are made for all sorts of reasons. Some people simply HAVE TO get themselves facing into the wind because they don't want to make a crosswind or downwind landing. Downwinders may not be fun, but they beat pounding a hole in the dirt any day. Other people make a sudden turn because they've been cut off at the last moment and are trying to avoid a collison - which CAN be done safely without overreacting if you're prepared to do it.

I would recommend some reading in the Safety pages. Read EVERYTHING by Brian Germain, and read Bill Von Novak's "Things to Do Before Downsizing" (or something like that), especially the part on emergency flat turns, flare turns, and downwind landings. Also really excellent is the Skydive Radio, Show #14 interview with Brian Germain. In this interview, Brian explains how you can dig yourself out of a low/panic/stupid turn without spinning up your lines or otherwise killing yourself.

This is NEED TO KNOW stuff, this stuff is just as important as knowing how to do a cutaway. And it needs to be practiced with some hop & pops, where you're all alone above 2 grand. Fun idea for a morning jump is to make a hop & pop, get yourself awake, say good morning to your canopy, and at a lot of dropzones, make a no wind landing before the day's winds start to kick in. When your friends get down you'll be all set (and packed) for a great day of skydiving.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[billvon 2,996]

> Are these high performance turns that much fun that it is worth the risk?

High performance turns at low altitude are indeed dangerous. However, one factor in many of these injuries/fatalities is an attempt to turn low without the knowledge/experience to do so safely.

Most skydivers will, at some point in their skydiving career, have to turn low. Maybe it's an off-field landing with an unseen obstacle. Maybe it's someone who cuts them off under canopy, or a 5 year old that runs onto the field. Whatever the cause, you may be faced with having to turn low or face a collision. At that point, you have to know how to safely turn at a very low altitude.

So it's great to make up your mind not to turn low for fun, but if that keeps you from practicing the skills needed to do that, it may hurt you in the long run. Make sure you can do the basic survival skills (flat turns, flare turns, braked turns) so that if you ever need to use them you will have them.

[Quake120 0]

Thanks for the advice everybody. There were a lot of good points made here that I'm sure will help me after I finish AFF.

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So it's great to make up your mind not to turn low for fun, but if that keeps you from practicing the skills needed to do that, it may hurt you in the long run. Make sure you can do the basic survival skills (flat turns, flare turns, braked turns) so that if you ever need to use them you will have them.

Thanks for that advice for sure. I'll practice all of the turns, even if only for emergrency situations.

I'm sure I'll almost always be the last one down since I'll just hang around in the air under canopy enjoying the scenery and the cool air.

[WeakMindedFool 0]

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After looking at the incident forum and various fatality reports, I'm beginning to notice a lot of people are killed because they try high-performance turns too low to the ground and run into something or lose control. It seems like the number of skydiving deaths per year would decrease by 5 or 10 if these turns did not happen. Are these high performance turns that much fun that it is worth the risk?

...Just my personal thought on this, but when I get to the point where I'm alone under canopy, I don't think I'll be trying any high performance turns for the safety reason, plus I just like hanging out in the air admiring the scenery. No rush to get to the ground. Skydiving is expensive and I want to get my moneys worth on each ride.

I have to laugh...LOL...there! I said the same damn thing three years ago. One of my coaches loves to point it out to me every time I slide by him doing a split on the asphalt on my Katana 120 loaded at 1.98. Like everyone above I'll tell ya, do it stupid and you WILL get broken. Do it smart and you might still get broken just not because you were being stupid. Getting the most out of your canopy will save your ass...it's saved mine! I see by your profile you like things that go fast. Let me be the first to welcome you to the wonderful world of swooping Now go get some coaching before you start...I can't wait to remind you of this post someday!
Peace!
Jason

Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute for lost faith in ourselves.
-Eric Hoffer -
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[kenneth21441 0]

Most of if not all my turns below 500 feet are braked turns: that is brakes set at 25 to 50 percent then turning in the direction needed.

This limits my speed of the turn and get some control factor.

Kenneth Potter
FAA Senior Parachute Rigger
Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA)
FFL Gunsmith

[JohnMitchell 16]

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A
...Just my personal thought on this, but when I get to the point where I'm alone under canopy, I don't think I'll be trying any high performance turns for the safety reason,

Wait until you get another hundred jumps.

Seriously, poor canopy control is one of the number one killers in our sport. I hope you keep that in mind and learn to fly your canopy safely. There are many good instructors for advanced canopy work after you complete your student training. The skills you will learn there are arguably as important as your basic emergency procedures.

[Ugali 0]

As a rule i don't do any spirals, radical stuff below 1500. Kinda freaks me out. But im sure that will change as soon as i have 200+ jumps.

Tom, Tom Tom, Tommy, Tom Love

[mjosparky 4]

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A fair number of people who hook it in aren't even trying to make a high performance turn. A lot of "panic turns", or just plain "stupid turns" are made for all sorts of reasons.

These are fatalities from low turns, not "panic turns" or "have to face the wind" turns. But from the results I would have to say they they were "stupid turns".

For 2005 and so far this year. 18 months.

1. 2006-05-27 United States Landing Low toggle turn

2. 2005-12-29 Portugal Landing Hard landing while making a low turn

3. 2005-10-28 Czech Republic Landing Hard landing while making a low turn

4. 2005-09-17 France Landing Hard landing while making a low turn

5. 2005-06-30 Germany Landing Hard landing while making a low turn

6. 2005-06-26 Russia Landing Hard landing while making a low turn

7. 2005-06-15 Sweden Landing Hard landing while making a low turn

8. 2005-06-03 Germany Landing Hard landing while making a low turn

9. 2005-04-16 United States Landing Held front risers after hook turn until impact

10. 2005-02-14 United States Landing Hard landing after low turn on borrowed canopy

11. 2005-01-04 United States Landing Hard landing while making a low turn

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[dharma1976 0]

if you talk to Brian germain you will learn that most low turn accidents are due to people not knowing how to do low turns....

there is a way to turn quickly without plowing yourself into the ground...

and there is a way to do flat turns to keep yourself from plowing into the ground...

with lower jump numbers I would try to keep it to flat turns and then later on take an advanced canopy course with Brian Germain or Scott Miller, it will make your head swim for a week or two but then it really changes everything

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.