WWIII???

[jakee 1,563]

1 hour ago, DJL said:

Edit: That said, I do think religion is a good foundation for morality and culture.

Why do you think that?

[billvon 3,069]

26 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

You think that fear of Hell is a good foundation for morality? 

A book of (mostly) moral rules is a good foundation for morality, if you don't have anything better.

[DJL 235]

12 minutes ago, jakee said:

Why do you think that?

So then replying to all three of you I guess I should say that religion CAN be a good foundation of morality and culture.  There is nothing you can't accomplish just by raising your children right in a secular world but for many people a church is the center of their family and community.  I went to a non-denominational non-theistic church when I was younger (I believe it would now be called a Unitarian Universalist church), I recall more readings from secular authors than I did anything relating to Christianity.  There was NEVER prayer in the sense of bowing your head and hoping an invisible magic man was there because there was never any message saying that you were supposed to believe in the magic man, much less pledge your soul at penalty of hellfire.

[gowlerk 2,249]

1 minute ago, billvon said:

A book of (mostly) moral rules is a good foundation for morality, if you don't have anything better.

So Aesop's fables would work just as well? Stories and moral lessons have gone together for as long as there has been a campfire to sit around and tell them while keeping the wolves at bay. You just don't need a god to have morals. And the god of The Bible is an altogether immoral creature himself.

[gowlerk 2,249]

1 minute ago, DJL said:

I went to a non-denominational non-theistic church when I was younger

I'm not sure that it can be a religion if it is non-theistic. Just looking at the standard dictionary meaning of the words theist and religion that is.

[DJL 235]

 

9 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

So Aesop's fables would work just as well? Stories and moral lessons have gone together for as long as there has been a campfire to sit around and tell them while keeping the wolves at bay. You just don't need a god to have morals. And the god of The Bible is an altogether immoral creature himself.

I agree.

[DJL 235]

7 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I'm not sure that it can be a religion if it is non-theistic. Just looking at the standard dictionary meaning of the words theist and religion that is.

Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster?   I'm ok inventing replacements for institutions that don't make people feel guilty.  I went to a Summer camp that showed us a video about how men should only date girls who had not had sex because they had the "The Glow".  The message was "Go for The Glow".  It was years later when I realized that the message was also that a girl who had had sex is less worthy and should live in unwed shame.  Fuck that place.

[gowlerk 2,249]

1 minute ago, DJL said:

It was years later when I realized that the message was also that a girl who had had sex is less worthy and should live in unwed shame.

I guess the boys would be encouraged to consider those girls to be "practice girls".

[DJL 235]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

I guess the boys would be encouraged to consider those girls to be "practice girls".

It was a Southern Baptist camp so yes, the Madonna/Whore complex in full swing.  Sadly, this is where I was indoctrinated into Born-Again Christianity.  I recovered at some point during college.

[gowlerk 2,249]

1 minute ago, DJL said:

It was a Southern Baptist camp so yes, the Madonna/Whore complex in full swing.  Sadly, this is where I was indoctrinated into Born-Again Christianity.  I recovered at some point during college.

At least you escaped. Some don't.

[jakee 1,563]

1 hour ago, DJL said:

It was a Southern Baptist camp so yes, the Madonna/Whore complex in full swing.  Sadly, this is where I was indoctrinated into Born-Again Christianity.  I recovered at some point during college.

I think this is exactly where the distinction between 'is' and 'can be' is quite important. It can be a good faoundation, but it can be a bad foundation also. I'd certainly say it's highly likely to introduce extraneous factors that have nothing to do with morality into the good/bad equation, or as in your case flip the two upside down completely.

[RonD1120 62]

6 hours ago, gowlerk said:

You think that fear of Hell is a good foundation for morality? I would argue that it is not. For if you are convinced you are going to be damned anyway you would have nothing to lose. And the world is full of people who know they are not good enough. And to get back to the topic of the thread, some of these people think that WWIII is a good thing because it would be part of the end times. Religion is a scam that developed along with government and organization. It's not necessary, but it does go hand in hand.

"Some people look to God and say, Thy will be done. God looks at some people and says, thy will be done." ~Chip Ingram

[RonD1120 62]

5 hours ago, gowlerk said:

At least you escaped. Some don't.

You cannot escape from being "born-again." You either are or you are not. There are believers, non-believers, make believers.

To reject being born-again means you actually swear allegiance to Satan. That is a pretty tough ritual for most folks.

[yoink 321]

5 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

You cannot escape from being "born-again." You either are or you are not. There are believers, non-believers, make believers.

To reject being born-again means you actually swear allegiance to Satan. That is a pretty tough ritual for most folks.

You CAN escape from indoctrination though.

 

And I completely reject your stance. It’s the most pernicious type of threat that is prevalent in religion. ‘If you don’t believe exactly what we say, not only are you damned for all eternity, but you’re actually evil and have sworn to Satan. You don’t want that, do you??? Better sign up!!’

 

To me that’s evil. Utterly. 

[gowlerk 2,249]

10 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

To reject being born-again means you actually swear allegiance to Satan.

Or, you could reject BOTH Satan AND Jesus because they are both imaginary.

[yobnoc 142]

12 minutes ago, RonD1120 said:

You cannot escape from being "born-again." You either are or you are not. There are believers, non-believers, make believers.

To reject being born-again means you actually swear allegiance to Satan. That is a pretty tough ritual for most folks.

I dunno...I prefer swearing my allegiance to Voldemort.  He's way more interesting than any of the characters in the buybull.

[yoink 321]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

Or, you could reject BOTH Satan AND Jesus because they are both imaginary.

Even if they weren’t it’s a bullshit argument. 

[yobnoc 142]

1 minute ago, yoink said:

Even if they weren’t it’s a bullshit argument. 

Yeah, especially because swearing allegiance to something is a very specific act.  It literally requires saying a thing. 

This is the No-True-Scotsman fallacy, Ron.  Do better.

[JoeWeber 2,822]

17 minutes ago, yobnoc said:

Yeah, especially because swearing allegiance to something is a very specific act.  It literally requires saying a thing. 

This is the No-True-Scotsman fallacy, Ron.  Do better.

He can't do better. But we can: just say no to proselytizer's. Seriously, WTF is this: "Some people look to God and say, Thy will be done. God looks at some people and says, thy will be done." ~Chip Ingram. And Who TF is Chip Ingram?

 

 

 

[normiss 850]

24 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

He can't do better. But we can: just say no to proselytizer's. Seriously, WTF is this: "Some people look to God and say, Thy will be done. God looks at some people and says, thy will be done." ~Chip Ingram. And Who TF is Chip Ingram?

 

 

 

Who TF cares?

It's laughable that the people that disagree with religious insanity are because of de debil.

Absolute idiocy.

[JoeWeber 2,822]

7 minutes ago, normiss said:

Who TF cares?

It's laughable that the people that disagree with religious insanity are because of de debil.

Absolute idiocy.

Like this pearl of wisdom: "To reject being born-again means you actually swear allegiance to Satan. That is a pretty tough ritual for most folks." Now that caused me to stop and think, I must say. In fact, at the time I was translating the op's manual for the Chinese Far Side of the Moon Lander into the original Aramaic and like totally lost my place! I have got to get my shit together.

[normiss 850]

19 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Like this pearl of wisdom: "To reject being born-again means you actually swear allegiance to Satan. That is a pretty tough ritual for most folks." Now that caused me to stop and think, I must say. In fact, at the time I was translating the op's manual for the Chinese Far Side of the Moon Lander into the original Aramaic and like totally lost my place! I have got to get my shit together.

I have trouble swearing allegiance to non-existent fairy tale beings.

#TheToothFairyThough #MaybeSantaToo

[RonD1120 62]

10 hours ago, yoink said:

You CAN escape from indoctrination though.

 

And I completely reject your stance. It’s the most pernicious type of threat that is prevalent in religion. ‘If you don’t believe exactly what we say, not only are you damned for all eternity, but you’re actually evil and have sworn to Satan. You don’t want that, do you??? Better sign up!!’

 

To me that’s evil. Utterly. 

Being born-again is not an indoctrination. It is an experience, one you will never forget or doubt.

I was totally alone, in the middle of the night, camped at Mono Lake in the Sierra Nevada Mountains on 16 Mar 81 when I experienced being born-again.

[RonD1120 62]

9 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

He can't do better. But we can: just say no to proselytizer's. Seriously, WTF is this: "Some people look to God and say, Thy will be done. God looks at some people and says, thy will be done." ~Chip Ingram. And Who TF is Chip Ingram?

 

 

 

What it means is that God respects your dignity and your freedom to choose. When you pass from your earthly existence you will be granted your heart's desire. It will be a blissful adventure or a horrible, terrifying choice.

What is your heart's desire?

[DJL 235]

10 hours ago, RonD1120 said:

You cannot escape from being "born-again." You either are or you are not. There are believers, non-believers, make believers.

To reject being born-again means you actually swear allegiance to Satan. That is a pretty tough ritual for most folks.

Can you tell me a bit more about the ritual for swearing allegiance to Satan?  I want to make sure I'm doing it right but don't believe that was part of the process of excluding religion from my life.

Does it look something like this: