Merger

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

Hi folks,

https://rigginginnovations.com/content/rigging-innovations-merge-sun-path?fbclid=IwAR1eDDixSbDbSeiaMoo_gmIjelbscNyDQpY6zgEx4weA5p_isYlodPQ9VQc

I first heard of this about two yrs ago; but was sworn to secrecy.

Jerry Baumchen

[HPC 7]

I'm skeptical about the continued production of one of the products (hint coming up). Usually when one company takes over another, the products and/or service, and subsequently most of the employees, of the company being taken over are phased out over the course of several years. Not trying to start anything here, but this has been my observation and has been proven time and time again, and in many different industries.

[gowlerk 2,190]

8 hours ago, HPC said:

the products and/or service, and subsequently most of the employees, of the company being taken over are phased out over the course of several years.

Well, except for a couple key people it's unlikely many employees will be moving from AZ to NC. The Curv and the Javelin are as different from each other as modern H/Cs get these days. I can see Sunpath continuing to produce the Curv and updating it. They did not need to buy out RI. Sandy would have retired and shut it down eventually anyway.

[HPC 7]

As you said, the Curv and Javelin are quite different in their design philosophies which makes me wonder why Sandy decided to sell to SP. Perhaps he felt that the basic differences between the two systems is what might keep both rigs in production. After all, it wouldn't make sense for SP to continue producing two similarly-designed rigs. What remains to be seen is whether or not SP will advertise the Curv and if so to what extent compared to Javelin advertising. And if Curv sales remain low compared to Javelin sales will they continue to market the Curv? I wonder if Sandy would have done more to ensure the Curv's long-time survival in the rig market had he first tried to sell the company and keeping it alive as its own entity instead of going for the merger (I.e. sale) with the second largest manufacturer of H/Cs. Maybe they bought out RI so that they could incorporate some of the Curvs many design features and innovations into a future Javelin update without having to pay royalties. I guess only the SP owners know the true motivation behind their decision to buy out RI. As you said, they didn't have to do it. I guess ultimately only time will reveal that.

Edited February 28, 2020 by HPC

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

14 hours ago, HPC said:

 Usually when one company takes over another, the products and/or service, and subsequently most of the employees, of the company being taken over are phased out over the course of several years. 

Hi HPC,

IMO this is very common practice in the business world.

A good friend sold his business when he was ready to retire.  His real only competitor in this area bought him, moved the equipment & closed up his former business.

My friend owned the building that he was in; that was his retirement $$$$$$.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

Hi HPC,

Re:  makes me wonder why Sandy decided to sell 

He did not sell, it was a merger.

Re:  had he first tried to sell the company

I had heard that it had been for sale for about 4 yrs; no takers.

Re:  the second largest manufacturer of H/Cs

I do believe that Sunpath is the largest mfr of H/C's.

Re:   their decision to buy out RI

Again, not a sale, a merger.  The devil is in the details.  

Jerry Baumchen

[HPC 7]

Sale, merger - call it what you wish. My point (and feeling) is that in ten years the Curv won't be in production. Of course, I'm not privy to the contract details so I can't say for certain. No doubt the "merger" contract will specify continued spare parts and support for the Curv for years to come (I would guess at least twenty). It may even specify continued Curv production for a period of time. But after that - who knows. The Q&A gave the same answer to most of the questions: everything will remain the same for the foreseeable future. Very little was actually answered but no surprise there as it's much too early for SP to show its cards. I see this "merger" as a long-term win-win-lose proposition. A win for Sandy and Brenda who get a well-deserved retirement, a win for SP who will get whatever it is they want out of RI, and a long-term loss for anyone who was looking at buying a Curv down the road. That's just my gut feeling. Hopefully I'm wrong, in part because the Curv is in my top three list of favorite rigs. BTW, I think UPT is number one, followed by SP in rig production. I think UPT has around 150 employees to SP's 70-75. Since both companies only produce H/Cs it would stand to reason that UPT produces more rigs. If not then either UPT is very inefficient or SP is very efficient, or both. Just curious - how difficult was it for you to keep this secret?

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

8 minutes ago, HPC said:

Just curious - how difficult was it for you to keep this secret?

Hi HPC,

No more difficult than anything else that I have been told to keep to myself.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  I'm thinking that SP may only support the RI products for a number of years & then that will be the end of them.

[HPC 7]

Sale, merger - call it what you wish. My point (and feeling) is that in ten years the Curv won't be in production. Of course, I'm not privy to the contract details so I can't say for certain. No doubt the "merger" contract will specify continued spare parts and support for the Curv for years to come (I would guess at least twenty). It may even specify continued Curv production for a period of time. But after that - who knows. The Q&A gave the same answer to most of the questions: everything will remain the same for the foreseeable future. Very little was actually answered but no surprise there as it's much too early for SP to show its cards. I see this "merger" as a long-term win-win-lose proposition. A win for Sandy and Brenda who get a well-deserved retirement, a win for SP who will get whatever it is they want out of RI, and a long-term loss for anyone who was looking at buying a Curv down the road. That's just my gut feeling. Hopefully I'm wrong, in part because the Curv is in my top three list of favorite rigs. BTW, I think UPT is number one, followed by SP in rig production. I think UPT has around 150 employees to SP's 70-75. Since both companies only produce H/Cs it would stand to reason that UPT produces more rigs. If not then either UPT is very inefficient or SP is very efficient, or both. Just curious - how difficult was it for you to keep this secret?

[HPC 7]

24 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi HPC,

No more difficult than anything else that I have been told to keep to myself.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  I'm thinking that SP may only support the RI products for a number of years & then that will be the end of them.

So it looks like we're in agreement about the Curv's long-term prospects.

[mark 107]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

I'm thinking that SP may only support the RI products for a number of years & then that will be the end of them.

Although USAPR is closely associated with RI, and I've worked with Sandy for a while, I'm not privy to exactly what Sunpath and RI have planned for the future.  I've been careful not to ask, so I don't have any secrets to keep.  I'm curious why you think Sunpath bought/merged with RI if Sunpath doesn't intend to keep producing RI products.  Can you speculate?

Edited February 28, 2020 by mark
fix grammar

[gowlerk 2,190]

I would assume that Sandy tried to sell it but was unable to. And that is not surprising. It is a small boutique business and Sandy is its biggest asset.

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

2 hours ago, mark said:

Can you speculate?

Hi Mark,

And, speculation is all I can do.

However, I previously posted this:

IMO this is very common practice in the business world.

A good friend sold his business when he was ready to retire.  His real only competitor in this area bought him, moved the equipment & closed up his former business.

The parachute industry is a very small industry when one considers total production of all mfr's world-wide.  I was once in a foundry in Brazil that had 6,000 workers.

Jerry Baumchen

[mark 107]

3 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Mark,

And, speculation is all I can do.

However, I previously posted this:

IMO this is very common practice in the business world.

A good friend sold his business when he was ready to retire.  His real only competitor in this area bought him, moved the equipment & closed up his former business.

The parachute industry is a very small industry when one considers total production of all mfr's world-wide.  I was once in a foundry in Brazil that had 6,000 workers.

Jerry Baumchen

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by mark
never mind

[pchapman 279]

Ok, I'm not super clear on business terminology of mergers and sales, but:

If Sandy owned the company outright, does he now own a share of Sunpath/RI?   If not, if he SOLD his company and got some retirement bucks out of it, it was a sale.  If those who have ownership of Sunpath, now own RI, well, that also shows a sale.

Even the RI  FAQ on the deal includes "1. Why is Rigging Innovations being sold to Sun Path Products?"

It may be a sale yet still be an effective merger if both teams continue to largely run their own domains, but with gradual co-mingling of staff and processes over time -- best person or process for the job stuff, even if there's a bit of "here's the new way we do things according to Sunpath".   Its not like all sorts of spare Sunpath staff will likely be flying to immediately to Arizona and kicking RI people out on the street. Yet what happens down the road when RI gets absorbed into the S. Carolina Sunpath, who knows.

Companies often talk of mergers even if one was sold to another, to indicate both teams are valued and are expected -- for now -- to continue to contribute in their own ways. A merger in operations but not actually so in ownership.  To what degree it really ends up a merger in the long run varies a lot. 

I'm willing to stand corrected, but it looks like a sale, could indeed also be called a merger for the short term, but it seems like Sunpath will be firmly in charge in the long term.

[HPC 7]

The two biggest questions I have are:

1. What is the long-term future for the Curv rig, RI's flagship product? Will it still be produced five years down? Ten years? Fifteen?

2. What is Sun Path's motivation behind purchasing or merging with RI? Is it to eliminate a competitor over time? Or is it to acquire some of the innovative features that are currently exclusive to the Curv, such as the bio-yoke, bio-curv, and grommetless main flap closure system (among other features)? Perhaps this is a precursor to a new generation Javelin rig that may incorporate some or all of the unique features currently available only on the Curv.

It may take some years before the truth comes out.

 

[Uriel2728 0]

maybe SunPath wants to use the Mojo-Mard in the future?

[HPC 7]

Yeeeee - ah, baby!! Maybe Sun Path wants to steal RI's mojo!

[eric.fradet 17]

49 minutes ago, HPC said:

Yeeeee - ah, baby!! Maybe Sun Path wants to steal RI's mojo!

 

Well Sandy Reid already stole the Mojo from me, The patent office studied my patent and the MOJO device, and found a violation of claim #1, the main and most important one.  

Instead of working out with me the disagreement, from last November on, Sandy REID has stayed silent, since he knows that he is wrong. I have to go through the legal step of filing a complaint asserting patent Infringement. i surely do, but now, it will be against Sunpath...

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

1 hour ago, eric.fradet said:

 

Sandy REID has stayed silent, 

Hi Eric,

I would expect him to do so.  The 'Mojo' was developed by Airborne Systems; a fellow by the name of Zwicker, I think ( it has been a few years since I talked to him about it ).  The last that I knew, he worked at their New Jersey facilities.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[eric.fradet 17]

21 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Eric,

I would expect him to do so.  The 'Mojo' was developed by Airborne Systems; a fellow by the name of Zwicker, I think ( it has been a few years since I talked to him about it ).  The last that I knew, he worked at their New Jersey facilities.

Jerry Baumchen

 

hi Jerry,

well Airborne also infringed my patent, big companies have not respect for individual as long you do not sue them....

[accumack 14]

My understanding is it is licensed from Airborne so your fight is with Airborne and not Sandy. Since he licensed it from Airborne I would expect Sandy to be silent!

[eric.fradet 17]

9 hours ago, accumack said:

My understanding is it is licensed from Airborne so your fight is with Airborne and not Sandy. Since he licensed it from Airborne I would expect Sandy to be silent!

it cannot be licensed from Airborne since it is already patented by me

[accumack 14]

7 hours ago, eric.fradet said:

it cannot be licensed from Airborne since it is already patented by me

Again your beef should be with Airborne not Sandy!

[Wally Tarasewicz 1]

What is a MOJO ?