covid-19

[olofscience 480]

5 hours ago, headoverheels said:

I wonder how many anti-vaxxers have that as a reason for their reluctance?   I've seen it as a meme on the HCA reddit thread, but not very often.  I doubt (with absolutely no basis ;-)  that it comprises a double-digit percentage of all sarscov2 anti-vaxxers.

Agree that it's unlikely to be more than single-digit. I'd go further and say it's probably less than 1%. Spoke to an antivaxxer on the phone yesterday - when I asked if he got vaccinated, he pretty much came out with a lot of bogus stats ("most people have already had it and not known it") and implied that people who take it are both risking their lives and also government bootlickers. Need to cover all bases, right?

[JerryBaumchen 1,373]

Hi folks,

The evolving GOP:  a conservative Republican governor named Rick Perry signed an executive order( that ) made his state the first in the country to mandate a vaccine 

The GOP’s halting, uneven journey toward becoming the anti-vaccine mandate party (msn.com)

Looks to me like the GOP is 'progressing' in reverse.  Time to try a forward gear, guys.

Jerry Baumchen

[Bigfalls 111]

On 9/10/2021 at 8:52 AM, kallend said:

I fail to see why "a sincerely held belief" in an invisible sky-zombie or other fictitious entity should permit anyone to put their fellow humans at risk of disease.

You mean like the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, or the Great Pumpkin.

[kallend 2,027]

47 minutes ago, Bigfalls said:

You mean like the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, or the Great Pumpkin.

There is exactly the same evidence for the existence of each of those as for any deity.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

United Airlines has issued it's policy on those who have a 'valid reason' to refuse the vaccine.

They don't get fired.

Those claiming a religious exemption get unpaid leave.
Those who have a valid medical reason get temporary medical leave.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/united-airlines-staff-who-are-granted-religious-exemptions-vaccine-mandate-n1278782?cid=sm_npd_ms_fb_ma&fbclid=IwAR32UdnYA0CQkXZJQ2_iWkkK-RNxJWcHMceFOXRbBAOcOTKMCq8EIBakouw

[TriGirl 319]

On 9/11/2021 at 9:28 PM, airdvr said:

Bottom line is you'll never, ever convince him and his ilk to get the vax and trying to force them will make things worse.

Perhaps, but you have your own choices to make.  I won't have any guests at my home who have not been vaccinated.  If your friend chooses to remain a carrier, that's his decision.  You can choose not to hang out with people who are 10x more likely to carry, transmit, and mutate the virus, which ultimately would exponentially increase the risks to you and your family.  Your justifications should be given the same respect as you're giving to his.

[headoverheels 333]

2 hours ago, TriGirl said:

Perhaps, but you have your own choices to make.  I won't have any guests at my home who have not been vaccinated.  If your friend chooses to remain a carrier, that's his decision.  You can choose not to hang out with people who are 10x more likely to carry, transmit, and mutate the virus, which ultimately would exponentially increase the risks to you and your family.  Your justifications should be given the same respect as you're giving to his.

My wife has a compromised immune system, made worse by immunomodulatory drugs she is on.  She's had 3 doses of Moderna, but was only at about the 2% percentile for antibodies after the 2nd dose.  She is sad that she may never see one of her best friends again (they are not local, but still got together), because her friend is not getting vaccinated.   Same for another friend.  I wouldn't modify my behavior as much (only one very slight comorbidity, normal immune, not overly concerned), but I absolutely must avoid picking up anything (even common cold) and passing it on to her.  Sigh.  I will get a 3rd dose myself, as soon as it is authorized.   I could just claim to be immunocompromized and get the 3rd -- it wouldn't get questioned, but will wait a couple of weeks to see what authorizations come down the pike.

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by headoverheels

[ryoder 1,590]

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

Yeah, like the people behind this wouldn't apply just a bit of understanding of crowd psychology (or idiot psychology) to this sort of thing.

[ryoder 1,590]

Bob Enyart, conservative firebrand and pastor, dies of COVID-19

In October, Enyart successfully sued the state over mask mandates and capacity limits in churches, a rare legal victory against broad public health mandates instituted during the pandemic.

...

On his old TV show, Bob Enyart Live, the host would “gleefully read obituaries of AIDS sufferers while cranking ‘Another One Bites the Dust’ by Queen,” Westword reported.

 

That's a shame.

[kallend 2,027]

Bottom line:   unvaccinated people are approximately 29 times more likely to be hospitalized with COVID-19 than those fully vaccinated, and are 16 times more likely to get heart inflammation, known as myocarditis, that can lead to permanent damage of the heart muscle or, in the worst cases, death.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/pdfs/mm7037e1-H.pdf

 

Oh, and 11 times more likely to die than the unvaccinated.

[kallend 2,027]

Hospital workers who refuse vaccination SHOULD be fired.  They are ignoring best practice, setting a very poor example, and unethically putting patients and co-workers at risk.

[gowlerk 2,216]

11 minutes ago, kallend said:

Hospital workers who refuse vaccination SHOULD be fired.  They are ignoring best practice, setting a very poor example, and unethically putting patients and co-workers at risk.

They should face license suspensions as well.

[jakee 1,500]

1 hour ago, ryoder said:

On his old TV show, Bob Enyart Live, the host would “gleefully read obituaries of AIDS sufferers while cranking ‘Another One Bites the Dust’ by Queen,” Westword reported.

 

That's a shame.

Amazon still deliver physical CDs right? I’ve got a gift card that needs spending

[kallend 2,027]

20 minutes ago, jakee said:

Amazon still deliver physical CDs right? I’ve got a gift card that needs spending

How 20th Century!

 

[ryoder 1,590]

43 minutes ago, kallend said:

Hospital workers who refuse vaccination SHOULD be fired.  They are ignoring best practice, setting a very poor example, and unethically putting patients and co-workers at risk.

Some years back I was perusing the local news site from my old hometown and found the story of a nurse at the local hospital who had been fired for refusing an influenza vaccination. 

[metalslug 36]

On 9/13/2021 at 1:16 PM, TriGirl said:

You can choose not to hang out with people who are 10x more likely to carry, transmit, and mutate the virus, ..

Do you have a citation for that ? I've been struggling to find published consensus on how much more infectious such people are. To be clear; I agree that vaccination is wise and necessary, I was amongst the first 14% in my country to be twice-vacc'ed. I also agree that the unvaccinated place an unnecessary burden on healthcare resources. All good points.

With that being said; some parts of the toxic vitriol being directed to the unvaccinated includes denial of rights (venue admission, employment, public care & services, etc.). Critics who are advocating, in effect, a two-tiered society; those with rights and those without, depending on the documents that you carry, and thereby establishing a new kind of Untermensch . That fundamentally gives me a sense of unease in democratic countries.  Ultimately I believe the greater good of society does trump individual freedoms, as I expect most forum members here do, but it's a bitter choice to have to make.

[JoeWeber 2,736]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

Hospital workers who refuse vaccination SHOULD be fired.  They are ignoring best practice, setting a very poor example, and unethically putting patients and co-workers at risk.

Yep. And the AMA should recommend that, like the Doctor in Tennessee, all Doctors, NP's, PA's should refuse to see unvaccinated patients in their clinics. That would get the ball rolling.

[gowlerk 2,216]

14 minutes ago, metalslug said:

Critics who are advocating, in effect, a two-tiered society; those with rights and those without, depending on the documents that you carry, and thereby establishing a new kind of Untermensch .

Actually there is no plan to create a "two-tiered society", that is hyperbole. Instead there is a plan to put enough pressure on the unvaccinated to make it much easier for them to just give in and do the right thing. And it is beginning to work. Right now it is still a big issue. A year from now we (and most of them) will be wondering what all the fuss was about as we all get used to our yearly booster shots. 

[SkyDekker 1,465]

30 minutes ago, metalslug said:

With that being said; some parts of the toxic vitriol being directed to the unvaccinated includes denial of rights

Where are actual rights being denied? In BC we have now instituted a proof of vaccine program for discretionary activities. Some people are arguing it trample son their rights, but I have yet to find a document stating people have a right to eat at a restaurant, go to a concert, or visit a gym.

And employment generally has all kinds of stipulations. You try and become a UPS driver without a driver's license.

[nwt 131]

57 minutes ago, metalslug said:

denial of rights (venue admission, employment, public care & services, etc.)

None of these things are rights.

Quote

Critics who are advocating, in effect, a two-tiered society; those with rights and those without, depending on the documents that you carry, and thereby establishing a new kind of Untermensch .

Bullshit. Nobody is born an antivaxxer and being one isn't unchangeable. This is in no way comparable to Untermensch. It is a completely and utterly absurd thing to say and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Edited September 14, 2021 by nwt

[metalslug 36]

8 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Where are actual rights being denied? In BC we have now instituted a proof of vaccine program for discretionary activities. Some people are arguing it trample son their rights, but I have yet to find a document stating people have a right to eat at a restaurant, go to a concert, or visit a gym.

And employment generally has all kinds of stipulations. You try and become a UPS driver without a driver's license.

All true, and to ride a motorcycle in most US states you need a licence, but not necessarily wear a helmet. Would there be a fuss if that changed tomorrow to mandate helmets for all ? Would we hear arguments about 'my body, my choice' ?  This is largely why I'm keen to know the outcome of studies into the relative infectiousness of the vaccinated vs the unvaccinated and the relative danger to others. 

In fairness to your comment; perhaps there are no actual documented rights to eat at a restaurant, go to a concert, or visit a gym. I lived in South Africa for many years before 1990 so I know all about "right of admission", but I wasn't entirely comfortable with it.

[billvon 3,006]

52 minutes ago, metalslug said:

Do you have a citation for that ? I've been struggling to find published consensus on how much more infectious such people are. To be clear; I agree that vaccination is wise and necessary, I was amongst the first 14% in my country to be twice-vacc'ed. I also agree that the unvaccinated place an unnecessary burden on healthcare resources. All good points.

With that being said; some parts of the toxic vitriol being directed to the unvaccinated includes denial of rights (venue admission, employment, public care & services, etc.). Critics who are advocating, in effect, a two-tiered society; those with rights and those without, depending on the documents that you carry, and thereby establishing a new kind of Untermensch . That fundamentally gives me a sense of unease in democratic countries.  Ultimately I believe the greater good of society does trump individual freedoms, as I expect most forum members here do, but it's a bitter choice to have to make.

Some data:

From the CDC MMWR report we learn that "The vaccine effectiveness point estimates declined from 91% before predominance of the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant to 66% since the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant became predominant at the HEROES-RECOVER cohort study sites."  In other words, previously, people who were vaccinated were ten times less likely to become infected; with Delta, they are now three times less likely to become infected.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e4.htm

Meanwhile, for symptomatic disease, moderna is 95% effective, pfizer is 80% effective and J+J is 60% effective at preventing hospitalization against Delta; the numbers are 92%, 77% and 65% respectively at preventing urgent care visits.

Quote

With that being said; some parts of the toxic vitriol being directed to the unvaccinated includes denial of rights (venue admission, employment, public care & services, etc.). Critics who are advocating, in effect, a two-tiered society; those with rights and those without, depending on the documents that you carry, and thereby establishing a new kind of Untermensch . 

I agree there should not be "toxic vitriol."  If anyone is wishing death on anyone else, shame on them.

But two-tiered society?  We have it, and no one seems upset about it now.  People without shoes and shirts are not allowed in most restaurants.   Kids who poop their pants are not allowed in most pools.  People who refuse to wear a mask are not allowed in most NICU's.  People without government ID are not allowed to fly.  People who drive drunk lose their licenses and aren't allowed to drive any more, thus becoming Untermensch.

 

 

[billvon 3,006]

9 minutes ago, metalslug said:

All true, and to ride a motorcycle in most US states you need a licence, but not necessarily wear a helmet. Would there be a fuss if that changed tomorrow to mandate helmets for all ? Would we hear arguments about 'my body, my choice' ?

Probably.  Because if you don't wear a helmet you put yourself at risk.  If you don't get vaccinated you put other people at risk.

[olofscience 480]

30 minutes ago, metalslug said:

In fairness to your comment; perhaps there are no actual documented rights to eat at a restaurant, go to a concert, or visit a gym. I lived in South Africa for many years before 1990 so I know all about "right of admission", but I wasn't entirely comfortable with it.

What you mentioned are privileges, and it's illegal to deny those privileges based on race, sexuality, and religion. Being antivax is none of those.