covid-19

[billvon 3,009]

9 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Then screw it, if anyone can show a positive anti-body test let's include them. But we must exclude all others or it'll be another pointless exercise.

Agreed - if it's a RECENT positive antibody test (last 60 days, say.)

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

32 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Nearly all the vaccine holdouts are now claiming natural immunity. Most of the are lying. 

They're claiming to be "Vaccinated in the Blood of Christ" (not joking).

[winsor 236]

8 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

They're claiming to be "Vaccinated in the Blood of Christ" (not joking).

Or 'Identify as Vaccinated' as the case may be.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

10 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

They're claiming to be "Vaccinated in the Blood of Christ" (not joking).

Unfortunately when they get sick they start believing in science and don't just rely on the Blood of Christ. 

[base698 20]

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41423-021-00779-5

"Life finds a way"

Quote

Collectively, our results suggest that the SARS-CoV-2 variant A.30 can evade control by vaccine-induced antibodies and might show an increased capacity to enter cells in a cathepsin L-dependent manner, which might particularly aid in the extrapulmonary spread. As a consequence, the potential spread of the A.30 variant warrants close monitoring and rapid installment of countermeasures.

Who could have predicted that?

 

[billvon 3,009]

19 minutes ago, base698 said:

Who could have predicted that?

Pretty much everyone who knows how viruses work.

[base698 20]

On 9/24/2021 at 9:03 AM, billvon said:

So natural immunity is a crap shoot.  You may become immune to critical antigens, or you may become immune to junk antigens.  The one advantage here is that you typically get immunity to several antigens, not just one.  So if those several include (say) the spike protein you're in good shape.

When they designed the vaccine, they wanted to target the one thing that would be hard for the virus to change.  And since it was only one antigen that would be presented, testing and approval could be a lot more straightforward.  Seems to have worked, given the rapid testing, rapid approval and good outcomes with the vaccines.

"Immune to junk antigens" still means you have more opportunity to stop the infection instead of relying on a single one.  

[Westerly 61]

covid has become the largest scapegoat for blaming your lazzyness in the history of our human race. there are still many people working in critical jobs (e.g. doctors, social workers, unemployment adjusters) who refuse to see customers in person. just trying to get an in person doctors visit can still be hard at some places. they continue to blame it on covid, but of course that's BS because at this point if you're vaccinate you have zero to worry about. vaccinated people are basically completely immune from death by covid except outside seriously ill patients. so at this point the real reason why they dont want to return to work is they just dont want to work at all. they want to continue being lazy at the expense of those who need their services.

Moderator warning - Westerly often posts misinformation about COVID-19.  Reader beware.

[billvon 3,009]

2 hours ago, base698 said:

"Immune to junk antigens" still means you have more opportunity to stop the infection instead of relying on a single one.  

The vaccine does not rely on a single one.

[billeisele 130]

   19 hours ago, billeisele said:

With college football in full swing and no one wears masks or distances, why is there not a notable increase?

Vaccination and NPI's (masking, cleaning, distancing etc)

You must be watching different events than me. I'm not seeing masks or distancing. Didn't see either at the World Series last night.

   Quote

If 57% of the population is fully vaccinated why are the death rates holding steady?

1) They are dropping actually
2) 57% is enough to get rates to drop as long as it's paired with other NPI's (like masking.)  To get 100% back to normal you'd need to get that to 80-90%.

You may be correct. The data I used was calendar 2021. The current death rate is back down to what it was in late August but still higher than what it was from March 10 - August 22. The current death rate is 6X higher than what it was in early July which was the low for the year. Let's hope the decline continues.

   Quote

Why is the US refusing to recognize natural immunity and other treatment protocols especially since the EU has done so?

?? They do recognize natural immunity and other treatment protocols.  Google monoclonal antibody treatment, for example

How is natural immunity being recognized? I'm not seeing it mentioned in the restrictions like the newly released travel guidelines. It would have been difficult for anyone to disagree with MAB treatments, it can work even in extreme cases. Other countries are recognizing treatment protocols that the US still doesn't mention. The EU is a good example on natural immunity acceptance and treatments. If what was published is correct they have dropped the need for vaccination cards. 

[billvon 3,009]

4 hours ago, billeisele said:

You may be correct. The data I used was calendar 2021. The current death rate is back down to what it was in late August but still higher than what it was from March 10 - August 22. The current death rate is 6X higher than what it was in early July which was the low for the year. Let's hope the decline continues.

I use this site to keep track of trends in the US:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

I tend to keep track of the infection rate, not the death rate, since deaths trail infections by 2-4 weeks.  So that's the leading indicator.

Quote

How is natural immunity being recognized? I'm not seeing it mentioned in the restrictions like the newly released travel guidelines. If what was published is correct they have dropped the need for vaccination cards.

It's being studied extensively to see what source of protection it provides.  The August Kentucky study showed that recent naive vaccination was 2.3 times more effective than previous infection at preventing future COVID infections.  A more recent Israeli study showed the opposite.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm

https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital

Personally I would be OK with a recent antibody test used in lieu of a vaccination.  A caveat there is that we don't know which antibodies to test for - some antibodies that are produced during a COVID infection are not effective at fighting off the disease, so it's going to take some research to figure out which antibodies we should be testing for.

Quote

If what was published is correct they have dropped the need for vaccination cards.

Well, you'd still have the cards, you'd just have space for a recent antibody test.

Quote

You must be watching different events than me. I'm not seeing masks or distancing. Didn't see either at the World Series last night.

OK, great.  So perhaps we will see yet another spike, along with the shutdowns, economic impacts and deaths.

But at least they got to watch sports.

[kallend 2,032]

Although US COVID19 deaths are down, Texas and Florida between them still account for 1/5 of all US deaths in the past 14 days.

Pretty much just because their governors think it OK to sacrifice thousands of their residents in order to deny a win to Biden.

I don't see this as much different from the purges of Stalin and Pol Pot, except they were killing their enemies, not their supporters, for political gain.

Edited October 29, 2021 by kallend

[billeisele 130]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

Although US COVID19 deaths are down, Texas and Florida between them still account for 1/5 of all US deaths in the past 14 days.

Pretty much just because their governors think it OK to sacrifice thousands of their residents in order to deny a win to Biden.

I don't see this as much different from the purges of Stalin and Pol Pot, except they were killing their enemies, not their supporters, for political gain.

Fact check and the claims above are false. Assuming the CDC website is accurate.
FL deaths are at the lowest rate in the country while IL is in the middle of the pack. TX is in the second highest group along with 8 other states. There are 7 states in the highest group. 
 

[wmw999 2,461]

That’s the difference between rate and raw numbers. Texas and Florida are populous states, therefore even with a lower rate, there will be more fatalities. 
Wendy P. 

[kallend 2,032]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

Fact check and the claims above are false. Assuming the CDC website is accurate.

 

Wrong.  Learn what "rate" means.

US deaths last 14 days: 21,284

TX deaths: 2,403

FL deaths: 1,784

TX + FL 19.7% of total 

 

At least it's down from 1/3 of total like it was a month ago.

FL + TX total still more than  ALL of western Europe.

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by kallend

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

2 hours ago, billeisele said:

Fact check and the claims above are false. Assuming the CDC website is accurate.
FL deaths are at the lowest rate in the country while IL is in the middle of the pack. TX is in the second highest group along with 8 other states. There are 7 states in the highest group. 
 

Kinda depends on how you define "Florida deaths".

I posted about a month ago that the 28 day death total for the 'Redneck Riviera" (FL, AL, MS, LA &TX) accounted for half the deaths in the US.
Include the states that comprised the Confederacy during the Civil War and it was TWO THIRDS.

They may currently have the lowest per capita rate, but that's neither surprising or creditable.
The Delta variant wave started earliest in Florida.
It lasted about 3 months and is on the way out. 
That's what Covid does. While there are some theories and ideas, nobody reallyknows why.

 

Funny that in the past 4 months, Florida has had almost as many deaths as in ALL OF 2020.
That is, they've lost as many people as all of the time before vaccines.
In 4 months.

Interesting story on it:
https://news.yahoo.com/florida-now-has-americas-lowest-covid-rate-does-ron-de-santis-deserve-credit-090013615.html

 

From the story:
 

Quote

In DeSantis’s case, he has effectively discouraged such measures, going so far as to tweet about monoclonal antibodies — an expensive treatment that helps only after you’ve gotten infected and potentially transmitted the virus to others — 30 times more often than vaccines. And in addition to banning mask requirements, he’s seeking to reward those who resist vaccine mandates at work with unemployment benefits and, in an effort to get anti-vax police officers to move to Florida, $5,000 bonuses.

So while it’s true that COVID waves may come — and go — regardless of what leaders like DeSantis do, the more important question is how their constituents do when those waves inevitably arrive.

And the bottom line is that this summer in Florida, people did not do as well as they should have. Why? Because far too many of them died. The raw numbers alone are staggering. In all of 2020 — before vaccines essentially eliminated the risk of death for most recipients — 23,384 Floridians died of COVID-19. Now nearly as many — 21,000 and counting — have died in the past four months alone. And another 135 Floridians are still dying, on average, every single day.

The relative numbers are even more damning. Before Delta hit, Florida ranked 26th in the nation for cumulative COVID deaths per capita; now it ranks ninth. What’s more, three of the states above Florida on that list — New Jersey, New York and Massachusetts — suffered the bulk of their deaths right in the beginning of the pandemic, long before vaccinations and other interventions drastically reduced the virus’s deadliness.

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,376]

3 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Kinda depends on how you define "Florida deaths".

I posted about a month ago that the 28 day death total for the 'Redneck Riviera" (FL, AL, MS, LA &TX) accounted for half the deaths in the US.
Include the states that comprised the Confederacy during the Civil War and it was TWO THIRDS.

They may currently have the lowest per capita rate, but that's neither surprising or creditable.
The Delta variant wave started earliest in Florida.
It lasted about 3 months and is on the way out. 
That's what Covid does. While there are some theories and ideas, nobody reallyknows why.

 

Funny that in the past 4 months, Florida has had almost as many deaths as in ALL OF 2020.
That is, they've lost as many people as all of the time before vaccines.
In 4 months.

Interesting story on it:
https://news.yahoo.com/florida-now-has-americas-lowest-covid-rate-does-ron-de-santis-deserve-credit-090013615.html

 

From the story:
 

 

Hi Joe,

And what is scarier is that DeSantis want to run for POTUS.

Jerry Baumchen

[winsor 236]

Given the relatively poor efficacy of the mRNA vaccine to prevent infection

https://www.scribd.com/document/535734554/s-1473309921006484#from_embed

the propensity of the vaccine to migrate from the vaccination site

https://www.docdroid.net/xq0Z8B0/pfizer-report-japanese-government-pdf

and the cytotoxicity of the spike protein, I'm more than leery about giving the vaccine to prepubescent children.

If the upside was more clearly compelling than the downside, I'd be cool with it.  Frankly, I'd love to come across convincing data to support the use of the vaccine in kids, but I'm underwhelmed so far.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[winsor 236]

Having had breakthrough infections to previous vaccinations (Polio, Smallpox), I still get pretty much every vaccine I can.

However, I am reminded of Chief Dan George's observation "sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesn't."

As vaccines go, the efficacy of the current crop of COVID-19 vaccines is truly abysmal:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/#CR4

It's good that we have made progress, but we are in no position to rest on our laurels.  I hope that whatever comes next is much, much better.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[BIGUN 1,326]

1 hour ago, winsor said:

However, I am reminded of Chief Dan George's observation "sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesn't."

As vaccines go, the efficacy of the current crop of COVID-19 vaccines is truly abysmal:

But, the "magic" doesn't work 100% of the time if you don't try it. 

It's why I didn't get too upset about  the Ivermectin, Hydro, and other myriad of things Doctors were trying when we were in the early stages of COVID. They were trying. And, according to the study you posted; it helps when = > 70% of the population gets vaccinated. No Vaccination is 100%. We still have the flu (and its annual mutations) and some people who get their flu shots still die from the flu (100 years later). But, it's a fighting chance that's better than nothing.

Anything greater than nothing is "magic."

[lippy 918]

2 hours ago, winsor said:

As vaccines go, the efficacy of the current crop of COVID-19 vaccines is truly abysmal

By what standards?  I guess you went to the same medical school as Westerly.

[winsor 236]

3 hours ago, lippy said:

By what standards?  I guess you went to the same medical school as Westerly.

Who?

If the rate of vaccination is statistically insignificant w.r.t. the rate of infection, the vaccine sucks out loud.

What part of that confuses you?

Edited October 30, 2021 by winsor
Article

[lippy 918]

26 minutes ago, winsor said:

What part of that confuses you?

After seeing months of the drivel you post in the 'Woke' thread I'm not going to waste any more of my time getting into a pissing match with you.  From everything I've read (including articles cited in the link you posted to back up your 'abysmal' claim), the vaccines are pretty effective at reducing the likelihood of infection and extremely effective at reducing serious infections leading to hospitalization/death.  They ain't perfect, but just about all accounts they're quite effective: certainly not abysmal

 

[yoink 321]

12 hours ago, winsor said:

Having had breakthrough infections to previous vaccinations (Polio, Smallpox), I still get pretty much every vaccine I can.

However, I am reminded of Chief Dan George's observation "sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesn't."

As vaccines go, the efficacy of the current crop of COVID-19 vaccines is truly abysmal:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/#CR4

It's good that we have made progress, but we are in no position to rest on our laurels.  I hope that whatever comes next is much, much better.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

You have a 100% chance of being shot when entering a room. I offer you a 40% chance not to be.

Do you take it, or do you go 'nah. That's abysmal. I'm waiting for the 99.99% offer.'?

 

And who exactly is resting on their laurels? I can guarentee you that the pharma industry continues to pour billions into further research on treatments for new covid strains, if only because it will make them even more in the future. Of course everyone is hoping that what happens next is better.

You're arguing  against positions that noone is taking.

Edited October 30, 2021 by yoink

[ryoder 1,590]

Zostavax was the original shingles vaccine with a 50% efficacy. Did I take the opportunity to cut my odds in half of getting shingles? You are damned right I did. The newer Shingrix has >90% efficacy, and I took that once available.