Healthcare comparison - a case study

[billvon 2,991]

Just now, yobnoc said:

And with provably and objectively worse outcomes.

That can't be right.  It's not that complicated as people would have us believe.  They must be objectively good outcomes.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

20 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

It is also not always as complicated as complicated as you would have us believe.

There are lots of examples of people who have not accessed healthcare due to financial constraints.

[BIGUN 1,314]

50 minutes ago, yobnoc said:

Um...get rid of the administrative costs associated with private insurance plans as well as the built-in safeguards in the form of jacked up prices on basic medical products and services (inflated by the hospitals to get more money from insurance companies so they don't get screwed by providing care for people who can't pay), decrease our defense spending (fraud, waste, and abuse), and increase taxes (offset by having no out-of-pocket expense for healthcare).

uh huh. 

[normiss 800]

13 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

There are lots of examples of people who have not accessed healthcare due to financial constraints.

Ex girlfriend complaining of chest pains, arrive at the ER and they refused to even look at her to do an EKG until I forked over $600. Seemed like a deposit on a large financial obligation.

Not everyone has the cash needed for healthcare. I've seen it bankrupt people.

[yobnoc 142]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

uh huh. 

Bigun: WhAt'S yOuR pLaN!?!?!

[I explain plan outline]

Bigun: BoRiNg!!! ZzZzZzZz

[SkyDekker 1,465]

Isn't it great that people have no problem paying $6,000 a year for health insurance premiums. But if those premiums would be replaced by a $1,600 health tax, it becomes unaffordable....

[turtlespeed 220]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

There are lots of examples of people who have not accessed healthcare due to financial constraints.

There are lots of examples of people crushing beer cans against their heads.

There are lots of examples of people eating Tide pods.

There are a lot of examples of people sleeping while driving.

There are a lot of examples of people texting and driving.

There are a lot of examples of people doing a lot of things that aren't in their best interests.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

10 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

There are lots of examples of people crushing beer cans against their heads.

There are lots of examples of people eating Tide pods.

There are a lot of examples of people sleeping while driving.

There are a lot of examples of people texting and driving.

There are a lot of examples of people doing a lot of things that aren't in their best interests.

Which of course has nothing to do with your claim that there are no barriers to healthcare in the US and that claims to the contrary are stupid.

[Phil1111 1,149]

4 hours ago, Coreece said:

Part of me wonders if our high costs are subsidizing other countries indirectly.

Also, are these high costs essential to the quality of medicine and development of pharmaceuticals?  If the U.S had a system similar to other countries, would the high costs then be spread out and passed on to other countries?

Sir, Yes and YES.. Its well known thought the world that high US drug costs subsidize the rest of the world. The US pharma industry uses the arguments that it protects US jobs in R & D. It also funds a massive US lobby effort in Washington. Thats also why trump originally promised to overhaul high US drug costs and why it went nowhere.Has Trump Actually Done Anything About Drug Prices?

U.S. Drug Prices vs The World

[gowlerk 2,192]

4 hours ago, Coreece said:

Part of me wonders if our high costs are subsidizing other countries indirectly.

 

How very American of you. You have the developed worlds most unfair health care system. With the poorest average outcomes. And you want to blame it on the rest of the world.

[Coreece 190]

58 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

5 hours ago, Coreece said:

Part of me wonders if our high costs are subsidizing other countries indirectly.

 

How very American of you. You have the developed worlds most unfair health care system. With the poorest average outcomes. And you want to blame it on the rest of the world.

No that's not what I'm doing at all.

Your ability to accurately comprehend some posts here is just about as bad as your political predictions.

[turtlespeed 220]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

And you want to blame it on the rest of the world.

How did you come to that conclusion from a question about a possible benefit to the world?

[BIGUN 1,314]

19 hours ago, yobnoc said:

Bigun: WhAt'S yOuR pLaN!?!?!

[I explain plan outline]

Bigun: BoRiNg!!! ZzZzZzZz

 

I'm not the one who's calling for a change and you didn't offer a plan - you offered an opening statement, "decrease our defense spending (fraud, waste, and abuse), and increase taxes (offset by having no out-of-pocket expense for healthcare)."

Decrease our defense spending - Even if you eradicated the entire military (800B/year) you'd still have 2.2 Trillion to come up with . . .

Increase taxes - 2.2 T = >$6,000 for every man, woman & child in the US. So a family of four's tax bill would be ~$24,000/year

To meet your objectives; we would eliminate the military and just shove the middle class into poverty. You're missing the obvious. The entire tax structure would need to be changed. Thanks for playing. 

Edited March 6, 2020 by BIGUN

[JoeWeber 2,720]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Increase taxes - 2.2 T = >$6,000 for every man, woman & child in the US. So a family of four's tax bill would be ~$24,000/year

That's gonna make life even harder for hobo's and parachute packers. Too bad there is no way to vary the amounts paid in based on income and wealth.

[Phil1111 1,149]

14 hours ago, gowlerk said:

How very American of you..... With the poorest average outcomes. And you want to blame it on the rest of the world.

That not quite true. America has the most expensive health care system. One that indirectly subsides the rest of the world by about 5-10%. Yet has general health treatment outcomes that are below western standards on average and below average rankings of satisfaction as well. In addition, waiting times are generally no better.

[BIGUN 1,314]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Too bad there is no way to vary the amounts paid in based on income and wealth.

Why would they endorse a program to their representatives when they can already afford health care?

[gowlerk 2,192]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

One that indirectly subsides the rest of the world by about 5-10%. 

Huh? You think that Americans allowing themselves to overpay insurance and drug companies compared to elsewhere is a subsidy? Really, or am I missing something else?

[JoeWeber 2,720]

13 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Why would they endorse a program to their representatives when they can already afford health care?

Can they? The legal right to go to any emergency room and lay the cost off on everyone else does not make it affordable healthcare.

[BIGUN 1,314]

5 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

e cost off on everyone else does not make it affordable healthcare.

Evidently, you don't have a plan either. Lotta words, Joe. But, all I'm hearing is "we want free." 

[JoeWeber 2,720]

23 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Evidently, you don't have a plan either. Lotta words, Joe. But, all I'm hearing is "we want free." 

I didn't offer a plan and nothing is free. I think the gap between our current system and single payer is too wide for one leap. I would start with making it legal for the government to negotiate pricing with drug companies. I'd continue with having a medicare buy in program for anyone who wants in. I'd require all doctors and hospitals to disclose in advance all charges in a clear, understandable way. I'd also require every doctor to accept government negotiated (medicare) pricing for all services. I'd let the market offer any more luxurious services at any price to those who can afford the bill. 

I'd pay for it by raising the top rates a lot, eliminating the red state subsidy by blue states and confiscating all 400 million privately own firearms except mine and selling them for 25 Bucks each on Ebay. 

[SkyDekker 1,465]

6 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I'm not the one who's calling for a change and you didn't offer a plan - you offered an opening statement, "decrease our defense spending (fraud, waste, and abuse), and increase taxes (offset by having no out-of-pocket expense for healthcare)."

Decrease our defense spending - Even if you eradicated the entire military (800B/year) you'd still have 2.2 Trillion to come up with . . .

Increase taxes - 2.2 T = >$6,000 for every man, woman & child in the US. So a family of four's tax bill would be ~$24,000/year

To meet your objectives; we would eliminate the military and just shove the middle class into poverty. You're missing the obvious. The entire tax structure would need to be changed. Thanks for playing. 

The cost of Trump's tax cut is $1.5 trillion and you applauded it. Basically you are saying that you can afford giving money to rich people, but find taking care of your society as a whole too costly.

[BIGUN 1,314]

2 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

The cost of Trump's tax cut is $1.5 trillion and you applauded it.

I did no such thing. 

[SkyDekker 1,465]

2 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I did no such thing. 

Sounds like you have your answer on how to pay for healthcare then.

[BIGUN 1,314]

1 minute ago, SkyDekker said:

Sounds like you have your answer on how to pay for healthcare then.

I do not. I; like Jerry am quite satisfied with my health care. But, when others start talking about taxing everyone without a plan in place - that causes me concern. The Canadian model causes me concern - see attachment.  

price-of-public-health-care-insurance-2018.pdf

[SkyDekker 1,465]

8 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I do not. I; like Jerry am quite satisfied with my health care. But, when others start talking about taxing everyone without a plan in place - that causes me concern. The Canadian model causes me concern - see attachment.  

price-of-public-health-care-insurance-2018.pdf 586.53 kB · 0 downloads

I don't think that a paper from a conservative think tank sponsored by a foundation that promotes alternative medicine is really the right information to base your opinion on.

From personal experience, I can also tell you those numbers are wrong.