We Need a Sacrifice to Mammon

[kallend 2,027]

Older people would rather die than let Covid-19 harm US economy – Texas official

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/older-people-would-rather-die-than-let-covid-19-lockdown-harm-us-economy-texas-official-dan-patrick

[kallend 2,027]

Interesting view from a "pro-life" politician.

[BIGUN 1,314]

I got to tell on myself - When I first read the thread: I thought it said, "We Need a Sacrifice a Mormon."  

Prolly need some more coffee. 

[wmw999 2,447]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

Older people would rather die than let Covid-19 harm US economy – Texas official

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/older-people-would-rather-die-than-let-covid-19-lockdown-harm-us-economy-texas-official-dan-patrick

Not me. The epidemic would harm the economy a whole lot more than a lockdown, I daresay.

Wendy P.

[airdvr 210]

I agree Wendy however, we're making some fairly sweeping changes based on unknown quantities.  Prevention is the word of the day but for how long?

[JoeWeber 2,720]

30 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I agree Wendy however, we're making some fairly sweeping changes based on unknown quantities.  Prevention is the word of the day but for how long?

Well, we've already phoned a friend, used our lifeline and polled the audience. Time to ask our wives, I reckon.

[wmw999 2,447]

50 minutes ago, airdvr said:

I agree Wendy however, we're making some fairly sweeping changes based on unknown quantities.  Prevention is the word of the day but for how long?

Maybe we should get some expert analysis, kind of like we do with health issues. But it has to be an honest one -- not the "big business is the engine of America" kind of analysis that's been going on. The kind of analysis that looks at the disagreeing information and measures it, and doesn't just try to build a case, or justify a scenario. I.e. not a narrative, but an honest assessment, and an acceptance that important people might be hurt, not just little anonymous ones.

Wendy P.

[sfzombie13 324]

3 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Maybe we should get some expert analysis, kind of like we do with health issues. But it has to be an honest one -- not the "big business is the engine of America" kind of analysis that's been going on. The kind of analysis that looks at the disagreeing information and measures it, and doesn't just try to build a case, or justify a scenario. I.e. not a narrative, but an honest assessment, and an acceptance that important people might be hurt, not just little anonymous ones.

Wendy P.

it takes as long as it takes, and not one second longer.  that is the same with everything.  i heard somewhere that the country would collapse if it is shutdown for three months.  it will not.  if it takes three months to get over this, then so be it.  if it takes a year, so be it.  i think that if they start to listen to people who know what they are talking about, it CAN be over in about another month.  too bad this administration isn't very good at that.  have you heard of the guy that died when he and his wife listened to trump and took fish tank parasite remover because he said chloroquine will cure covid 19 and said it was safe and wouldn't kill anyone?  natural selection at it's finest.  maybe we should put him on more often and the election will take care of itself by november.

[airdvr 210]

You don't know for a fact he did it because Trump said it was OK.  I was able to find the report online.

[wmw999 2,447]

The upshot is don't figure out the answer that you know in your heart is right, and then try to justify it. This is too large and complex for a heart answer (really). Look at the data, and go there. It's fine to bound the answer (no, we won't shoot people who hoard toilet paper ).

A lot of little people who haven't, or can't, save for three months, are going to be hurt a lot. If we stop the quarantine & slowdown now because we think it's wrong for the government to help them, that might cause a whole lot more people to die. It's a trade-off, but it needs to be stated that way, and not burnished up to make a nice story. And all those deaths might cause a different kind of recession, although not in the funeral industry. Thinking about how this will be written up in history books is one data point.

Wendy P.

[airdvr 210]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

I got to tell on myself - When I first read the thread: I thought it said, "We Need a Sacrifice a Mormon."  

I think Mitt would be a good choice. :)

[kallend 2,027]

1 hour ago, airdvr said:

You don't know for a fact he did it because Trump said it was OK.  I was able to find the report online.

His wife said he did.  I seriously doubt he thought of it all by himself.

Edited March 24, 2020 by kallend

[Phil1111 1,149]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I got to tell on myself - When I first read the thread: I thought it said, "We Need a Sacrifice a Mormon."  

Prolly need some more coffee. 

Thats almost as funny as this newsworthy story on FOX.

[kallend 2,027]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

The upshot is don't figure out the answer that you know in your heart is right, and then try to justify it. This is too large and complex for a heart answer (really). Look at the data, and go there. It's fine to bound the answer (no, we won't shoot people who hoard toilet paper ).

A lot of little people who haven't, or can't, save for three months, are going to be hurt a lot. If we stop the quarantine & slowdown now because we think it's wrong for the government to help them, that might cause a whole lot more people to die. It's a trade-off, but it needs to be stated that way, and not burnished up to make a nice story. And all those deaths might cause a different kind of recession, although not in the funeral industry. Thinking about how this will be written up in history books is one data point.

Wendy P.

Well, it is just "A Modest Proposal".

[Phil1111 1,149]

How about we line up the old white republicans. including the Texan and the FOX reporter. Lead by example.

Leading health officials have given their advice to democratic leaders in many countries already. The entirety of the EU, Canada, Australia and a dozen more. Then the less than democratic ones, ie. China and the sole outlier S. Korea. South Korea seemed to use modest quarantine and massive testing. China is obviously not a democracy. But everyone is using quarantine and testing.

NO OTHER country is using a stimulus package as large as the US is. As a proportion of GDP. NONE. It almost seems as if the US needs resolution to C-19 one way or another, by NOVEMBER.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

The upshot is don't figure out the answer that you know in your heart is right, and then try to justify it. This is too large and complex for a heart answer (really). Look at the data, and go there. It's fine to bound the answer (no, we won't shoot people who hoard toilet paper ).

A lot of little people who haven't, or can't, save for three months, are going to be hurt a lot. If we stop the quarantine & slowdown now because we think it's wrong for the government to help them, that might cause a whole lot more people to die. It's a trade-off, but it needs to be stated that way, and not burnished up to make a nice story. And all those deaths might cause a different kind of recession, although not in the funeral industry. Thinking about how this will be written up in history books is one data point.

Wendy P.

The primary objective of good government is the health and welfare of the population. Then comes justice, defense, education and the public infrastructure of the country. Heart has nothing to do with the equation.

The idea that the old and infirm would be abandoned on the trail as the tribe moved to new pastures, new hunting grounds, or moved for the winter. Went out of fashion when tribes settled in permanent villages. I know what you're saying. That there are economic costs to lockdown. That the entire economy can't be shut down for 18 months. Or however long it takes to defeat or accommodate this virus.

This is going to take discipline of the population. Either self imposed by a willing population or by the sanction of statute. Its going to take a massive medical response of testing and hospital/medical treatment. Its going to take time. Time past November.

All the rest is a bunch of B.S. Boeing aircraft will still built long after 2020. What is a landlord going to do if a tenant doesn't make rent payments during a quarantine? Within a couple months with quarantine, closed borders, testing, unemployment insurance and leadership. The economy can restart. 

"Thinking about how this will be written up in history books is one data point." S**T this is a defining point on how the character and values of every American is written in stone.

November be damned.

[turtlespeed 220]

2 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

 i think that if they start to listen to people who know what they are talking about, it CAN be over in about another month. 

This is simply untrue.

ANY model they have of the "shelter in place" is running about 90 days minimum.

The longer we stay unexposed and trickle in the Covid cases, the longer it will take.

 

I am NOT advocating that we mass expose.  I am just coming to a conclusion based on the facts and models.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

This is simply untrue.

ANY model they have of the "shelter in place" is running about 90 days minimum.

The longer we stay unexposed and trickle in the Covid cases, the longer it will take.

 

I am NOT advocating that we mass expose.  I am just coming to a conclusion based on the facts and models.

Wrong and wrong. China and S. Korea are both on the back side of the pandemic.Both in less than 60 days. Both with leadership.

[kallend 2,027]

"Prediction is always difficult, especially about the future", Niels Bohr.

[jakee 1,489]

31 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Wrong and wrong. China and S. Korea are both on the back side of the pandemic.Both in less than 60 days. Both with leadership.

At the moment, yes - but we have yet to see what effect the lifting of restrictions will have. There are several warnings out there that lockdown alone isn't going to stop this and we're likely to see new outbreaks of infection all over again every time the lockdowns finish. Where Wuhan is now is encouraging, but we really need to wait and see what Wuhan looks like a few weeks after people start moving freely around again.

[billvon 2,991]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

This is simply untrue.

ANY model they have of the "shelter in place" is running about 90 days minimum.

There are several models that do not run a continuous shelter-in-place for that long.

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

Quote

The longer we stay unexposed and trickle in the Covid cases, the longer it will take.

Our COVID-19 cases are now entirely self-sustaining.  Border controls no longer matter (at least to us - closing the US borders would now help other countries avoid rapid infection.)

[jakee 1,489]

7 hours ago, kallend said:

Older people would rather die than let Covid-19 harm US economy – Texas official

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/24/older-people-would-rather-die-than-let-covid-19-lockdown-harm-us-economy-texas-official-dan-patrick

I don't really have an issue with him believing his own life isn't worth protecting at all costs, but even if all the oldies agreed with him the problem with his stance is contained right at the very end of his statement - "“Look, I’m going to do everything I can do to live,” Patrick said. “But if you said, are you willing to take a chance … If I get sick, I’ll go and try to get better, but if I don’t, I don’t.”"

 

If he and all te other grandparents willing to sacrifice themselves do get sick, how are they going to try and get better? They'll ask the health service to make them better. And we've aready seen how that is playing out in Italy, even with a belated lockdown in place.

[Phil1111 1,149]

11 minutes ago, jakee said:

At the moment, yes - but we have yet to see what effect the lifting of restrictions will have. There are several warnings out there that lockdown alone isn't going to stop this and we're likely to see new outbreaks of infection all over again every time the lockdowns finish. Where Wuhan is now is encouraging, but we really need to wait and see what Wuhan looks like a few weeks after people start moving freely around again.

The NY times has removed subscription requirements for stories on coronavirus.

The section with graphs is superb. You can follow many variables in a easy to understand way. According to the graph above. The US will surpass China and Iran in about a week. Iran's numbers of course can't be trusted. China likely reliable IMO.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Phil1111

[gowlerk 2,192]

11 minutes ago, billvon said:

Our COVID-19 cases are now entirely self-sustaining.  Border controls no longer matter (at least to us - closing the US borders would now help other countries avoid rapid infection.)

I just crossed into Canada with a load of TP going to Montreal. I started the trip bringing wood pulp to a P&G plant in Green Bay where they make paper products. Then I loaded in a nearby plant in Neenah WI. I crossed at Sault Ste. Marie after driving through the MI upper peninsula. I'm sure Wolf River Joe knows all these roads! There is very little traffic. I have been able to avoid nearly all human contact. I will certainly skip having a shower at a truck stop along the way. It will be 6 days on the road before I get home if all goes well. My reload out of the Montreal area back to Winnipeg is already planned.

[ryoder 1,590]

17 minutes ago, jakee said:

I don't really have an issue with him believing his own life isn't worth protecting at all costs, but even if all the oldies agreed with him the problem with his stance is contained right at the very end of his statement - "“Look, I’m going to do everything I can do to live,” Patrick said. “But if you said, are you willing to take a chance … If I get sick, I’ll go and try to get better, but if I don’t, I don’t.”"

 

If he and all te other grandparents willing to sacrifice themselves do get sick, how are they going to try and get better? They'll ask the health service to make them better. And we've aready seen how that is playing out in Italy, even with a belated lockdown in place.

Israeli doctor in Italy: We no longer help those over 60

https://www.jpost.com/International/Israeli-doctor-in-Italy-We-no-longer-help-those-over-60-621856