PC in a Tow

[lilchief 1]

Yesterday I did a Hop'n pop at 7K. Counted to 3 after pulling and nothing happened! I know my canopy well enough that within 3 sec I feel the snatch. So i waited one more second, looked at my back and saw my PC inflated, but not pulling out my main. Instinctively i reached back and the main came out. gave me a 360 spin and came out properly at 5800f.

The part I'm not sure of, is whether I pulled out the pin or that the change of bodyposition gave the PC more wind and therefore got enough drag to pull the pin. It happened so instinctively that i don't remember feeling the bridle before my container opened.

I packed it last tuesday, and the PC was cocked properly, but i remember the pin was curved the other way. On other packjobs packers have done, the pin has been inserted the other way without problem during deployment.

questions? comments? I need help understanding what went wrong!

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[AFFI 0]

How much time did it take from the moment of exit until the moment your PC caught wind? If you had a main out after all that, only 1200' lower I am suspecting that not much time had elapsed between exit and deployment.

If you pitched your PC at a subterminal rate of descent, it may not have had enough air speed creating enough drag to initiate your main deployment, once you gained a little more speed the deployment began.

It is a neat way to see what a PC in tow looks like for a second, and it is a cheap thrill that will get the heart rate up for sure - I am just glad you did not get your hand caught in any lines while it was behind your back (where some would argue it shoulden't be) or fire your reserve before the miracle of the main started to take place.

[lilchief 1]

I waited approx 1 second after exit to deploy. I've had two hop'n pop's(teh lowest at 3000f) before and both had the 3 sec delay before i felt the snatch. I belive it caught wind instantly.

The aircraft was a c-182, exitspeed 60knot +/-

I remeber my bag bounced my hand away from the right container flap.

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[BIGUN 1,303]

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Instinctively i reached back

To do what?

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[AFFI 0]

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I waited approx 1 second after exit to deploy.

I remeber my bag bounced my hand away from the right container flap.

Then what you very likely experienced was simply what I described. A sub-terminal might launch deployment right away, or it might take some time...

It might be advisable to break the habbit or "instinct" of reaching back behind you. There has been some debate concerning the pro's and con's of the reach around for the PC in Tow (do a search), I am still not convinced there is a good reason to ever reach behind you and if the bag did indeed strike your hand then there is good evidence right there to support "not reaching back" - what if lines were to take a wrap around your hand/wrist? Then the only bones not broken after landing might have been from the elbow down.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[lilchief 1]

To pull out the pin out manually. But as AFFi said, it's not the best option, and could be very dangerous.

If it happens again, I'll wait a bit longer before starting on EP. Also, I'll double check my pin before jumping.

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[BIGUN 1,303]

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To pull out the pin out manually. But as AFFi said, it's not the best option, and could be very dangerous.

If it happens again, I'll wait a bit longer before starting on EP. Also, I'll double check my pin before jumping.

Thank you.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jimmytavino 16]

remember,,, just because a pilot chute has been cocked before a pack job,, does not insure that it will stay cocked, throughout that pack job...
handling the canopy can cause it to tug on the bridle, and as the canopy is bagged,,, it is easy for the "kill line" to slide a good distance, within the bridle itself.... ALWAYS check the p c to be sure it has STAYED cocked, as you are completing the insertion of the pin.... I usually draw the PC through the air by the bridle to actually SEE it inflate,, and then also check the 'window' in the bridle for secondary verification, an uncocked pilot chute, at ANY deployment speed,, could be trouble... glad that altitude was in your favor....

[Danne 0]

How many jumps on pilot chute?

/D

[jheadley 0]

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To pull out the pin out manually.

Last week a guy at my dz had a PCIT and tried to reach back to pull the pin manually. His CYPRES saved him. In his case, it was a misrouted bridle, and all the pulling in the world wouldn't have done anything. Don't waste time with a pilot chute in tow, although from 7K you would have some time to try to fix it, but still I think the whole "reach back and pull your pin" idea is not a good EP, as proven above.

I think if you can see your pilot chute fully inflated behind you, then it's especially pointless. Doesn't a pilot chute have around 100-200 pounds of drag force? A lot more than your arm.

[mcezmac 0]

That exact thing happen to me last night!! I didn't believe it when I saw the white in the kill line. I asked one of the packers about it so I learned something new the easy way.

[jimmytavino 16]

well done to check it yourself....I would have asked THE packer who did the rig... not just ANY packer...
PS...The kill line only needs to move a real short distance to show "white" in the window.. However if it moves 4 or 5 inches,, OR if it never WAS cocked, it looks exactly the same as if it only moved an inch,, yet it could give you a PC in tow.. GEar checks prior to donning the rig.. MUST include a check on that window, whenever a rig has a kill line pilot chute....
and to reiterate..... time spent "reaching back" and playing with something you can't even see... is better spent getting flat and firing a reserve. Pulling the 3 ring release handle is generally not thought to be needed, since the main is not even out of the pack tray, the riser covers are likely still closed, AND it WASTES time.
I towed a PC back in the 70's before there werekill lines and collapsible PCs.. The rig had a belly band mounted pouch, which I stupidly twisted
while gearing up... No amount of pulling or prodding was gonna work, no need to throw the risers up into the situation, got flat and stable and fired a 26" LOPO round reserve up through the mess... It took.this was in the days,,,,pre-cyress.

[Scrumpot 1]

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think if you can see your pilot chute fully inflated behind you, then it's especially pointless. Doesn't a pilot chute have around 100-200 pounds of drag force? A lot more than your arm.

BINGO! ...And then let's say by some FLUKE you were able to pull the pin manually, and the PC in tow was because of a misrouted bridal. Now what you've gone and (probably) caused is a LOT more potential MESS just above your back for your reserve to fire into that some misrouted bridals might not even "allow" to be released (in either case) during EP's (assuming now after messing with this for a while that you actually even got this far), instead of JUST your PC ...which your reserve OTHERWISE would have a much greater chance of clearing.

"Instinctively" is the word in the original posters post here though that bothers me. What do you mean by "instinct" in this case, and where the heck did THAT come from at only 100 or so total jumps? Maybe if you KNEW what you were doing, and this were a CONSIDERED manuever, ...but "instinct"? ...?? Is this trained somehow now adays that such a low-time jumper could ever consider something like this somehow "instinctively"? JHeadley, You now mention another jumper too who apparently did the same thing until his Cypres actually fired? Now this really concerns me. - Anyone else?

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[lilchief 1]

First: thanks for the info, all of you,I got exactly what i needed.

To clarify three things:

I pack my self

The PC has 30-40 jumps now

Instinctively..well, I really don¨t know why, but I did it without even thinking, and it may be because it is another option, perhaps? anyway, not a good one. But I've learned.

This is what happened today:

Did a super cool head down exit with a buddy, tansitioned to sit..blablabla...separated at 5' pulled at approx 3100f counted 2 sec and noticed that nothing happened. Looked back and saw a PC in a Tow. I reached back, BUT i learned my lesson and stopped when the hand was on the side of the rig. Caught the cutaway handle before my eyes was on it and threw it, pulled silver and was under a nice white Smart 190 at something like 1500f( I didn't watch the altimiter). 1 sec after i was under canopy, i felt my main drop from the rig. Luckily I caught it with my feet, grabbed it with my hands and kept the bag(the main was still in the bag) and PC to me during decent. The smart was NICE to fly :) yelled with the top of my lungs: YEEEEHA! three times, and to times more after landing. What a rush!
After catching my breath on the ground a experienced skydiver came to check on me. He noticed what had happened to my PC. We took it inside and 4-5 riggers looked at my gear and discussed what had happened.

This is the conclusion:
During pull, the bridle had caught a part of the PC where the mesh and ZP fabric is sewed together. So there was both mesh and Zp fabric closed in a little loop of bridle. This caused my PC to behave like a PCIT and didn't inflate at all.

They came to the conclusion(to of the riggers had the same mal as I a couple of years ago) that bridle is best with the mesh on the inside of the PC packjob, leaving the Zp fabric on the outside. So when you pull, all the ZP fabric will come out before any bridle catches air. I've until now folded the PC 2 times then s-folded the bridle on the ZP fabric and then rolled the PC around the bridle.

This was my first reserve, and I'm proud of my self, knowing how fast I responded, and how well my EP came through. It took approx 1,5 sec from the time i grabbed my cutaway handle, until I pulled silver.

I never found the freebag , I would like to give it a big hug for being a part of what saved me( I gave me reserve a big hug and kissed my rig).

Never give up!

Don't forget to pull

Practice EP often!!!!


Beers coming up thursday

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[fcajump 164]

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First: thanks for the info, all of you,I got exactly what i needed.

To clarify three things:

I pack my self

The PC has 30-40 jumps now

Instinctively..well, I really don¨t know why, but I did it without even thinking, and it may be because it is another option, perhaps? anyway, not a good one. But I've learned.

This is what happened today:
Luckily I caught it with my feet, grabbed it with my hands and kept the bag(the main was still in the bag) and PC to me during decent.

Wanted to add my $.02...

First - COOOOOLL!!! Congrats on getting it right. Your prize is to live to jump another day.

I would caution you on one aspect... while I appreciate the desire to keep that expensive main, by catching it you risk several potential bad days: entanglement with your body and then:
* catching on something on the ground during landing,
* inflation of the PC, leading to
* inflation of the main while entagled with you,
* hands occupied while in proximity of other fliers and or on out landing.

At a minimum, I would think about dropping it once over a good place to find it.

Finally (hi-jack alert): years ago I had a PCIT and found NOTHING wrong with the pack or PC... until I found out that the PC was the wrong size (too small) for my main... To those who jump larger canopies (>180ft^2) make sure the kill-line PC you use is large enough for the canopy its extracting. Talked directly with Mr. Cazer and he upgraded me on the spot. No issues since.

Congrats!
Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...