Antifa poll

[gowlerk 2,192]

Yes, no, or I'd rather not say . Note, I have chosen the "make voters names public" option. I'm not sure how that works and I don't think I have seen it used before.

[wmw999 2,447]

If it requires belonging to some group, no.

If it means I'm against fascism, yes.

If it means I think all government, or all conservatives, or all police, are evil, then no.

So 2 out of three means a "no" vote. But then I'm not real big on formal groups that seem to demand allegiance.

Wendy P.

[ryoder 1,590]

I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member.

-- Groucho Marx

[gowlerk 2,192]

2 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

If it requires belonging to some group, no.

If it means I'm against fascism, yes.

If it means I think all government, or all conservatives, or all police, are evil, then no.

So 2 out of three means a "no" vote. But then I'm not real big on formal groups that seem to demand allegiance.

Wendy P.

That's really the crux of the question for me. Some people feel it is an formal organization that you join. Other people feel it is more an outlook or viewpoint. I'm pretty sure nearly everyone here is against facism. I'm really asking how people view "antifa". Personally I see it as a viewpoint.

[wmw999 2,447]

19 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

That's really the crux of the question for me. Some people feel it is an formal organization that you join. Other people feel it is more an outlook or viewpoint. I'm pretty sure nearly everyone here is against facism. I'm really asking how people view "antifa". Personally I see it as a viewpoint.

and, I guess because of the formal name, I see it as something more formal; an alignment, rather than just a viewpoint.

Wendy P.

[yoink 321]

55 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

If it requires belonging to some group, no.

If it means I'm against fascism, yes.

If it means I think all government, or all conservatives, or all police, are evil, then no.

So 2 out of three means a "no" vote. But then I'm not real big on formal groups that seem to demand allegiance.

Wendy P.

Exactly this.

[billvon 2,991]

57 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

If it requires belonging to some group, no.

If it means I'm against fascism, yes.

If it means I think all government, or all conservatives, or all police, are evil, then no.

I agree with the first two.  However, I think you may have let the media define the third one for you.  

It's like asking someone who watches only FOX News whether or not they are liberal, and having them say "if being liberal means I hate the police, and want everyone to be gay and on welfare, then definitely not."

[riggerrob 643]

Amazing how polarized American politics have become.

I fear extremists on both sides of the aisle.

Russia proved that hard-core, left-wing communism did not work.

Hitler and Musilinni proved that hard-core, right-wing fascism did not work.

While I might agree with some of Antifa's goals, I fear their violent methods. TV news reports portray Antifa protesters as violent, anarchist thugs.

The ultimate Antifa foolishness (a few months back) was masked Antifa thugs harassing an American citizen waving an American flag on the sidewalk outside a coffee shop that refused to serve coffee to police. Sorry if I sound narrow-minded, but if you object to waving an American flag in the USA, I suggest that you leave the USA.

[turtlespeed 220]

11 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

Amazing how polarized American politics have become.

I fear extremists on both sides of the aisle.

Russia proved that hard-core, left-wing communism did not work.

Hitler and Musilinni proved that hard-core, right-wing fascism did not work.

While I might agree with some of Antifa's goals, I fear their violent methods. TV news reports portray Antifa protesters as violent, anarchist thugs.

The ultimate Antifa foolishness (a few months back) was masked Antifa thugs harassing an American citizen waving an American flag on the sidewalk outside a coffee shop that refused to serve coffee to police. Sorry if I sound narrow-minded, but if you object to waving an American flag in the USA, I suggest that you leave the USA.

You may, or may not, have just crossed a line into racism - depending on the day.

No - I'm not actually as serious about that as it would seem, but, unfortunately it's still a little bit true.

 

[DJL 235]

I answered no because there's little context for this except the loosely organized group in the US referred to as ANTIFA.  While some of my views align with their goals I do not agree with any of their methods.  They are a mob at best and use force to elicit change and to suppress speech, the exact thing they claim to fight against.

[billvon 2,991]

3 minutes ago, DJL said:

I answered no because there's little context for this except the loosely organized group in the US referred to as ANTIFA.  While some of my views align with their goals I do not agree with any of their methods.  They are a mob at best and use force to elicit change and to suppress speech, the exact thing they claim to fight against.

 

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

10 minutes ago, billvon said:

 

Hi Bill,

Absolutely.

And, I agree with Wendy completely.

Jerry Baumchen

[DJL 235]

17 minutes ago, billvon said:

 

You're responding to me but it can't be said whether EITHER group on the bottom is ANTIFA.  Is that an accusation I've missed?

[turtlespeed 220]

6 minutes ago, DJL said:

You're responding to me but it can't be said whether EITHER group on the bottom is ANTIFA.  Is that an accusation I've missed?

The goal posts moved while you weren't watching - 

I think they are trying to say the looters aren't a true representation of all the protesters.

I think.

[jakee 1,489]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

That's really the crux of the question for me. Some people feel it is an formal organization that you join. Other people feel it is more an outlook or viewpoint. I'm pretty sure nearly everyone here is against facism. I'm really asking how people view "antifa". Personally I see it as a viewpoint.

True, however while there is no unified organisation called Antifa, the antifa movement is about getting involved in direct action against fascism, not just about being philosophically opposed to fascism. In fact, 'antifa' is not just an abbreviation for anti-fascist but for anti-fascist action, and has been ever since it originated in Germany in the '30s with the paramilitary group Antifaschistische Aktion.

So, I am against fascism, but I'm not antifa.

[wmw999 2,447]

1 hour ago, turtlespeed said:

The goal posts moved while you weren't watching - 

I think they are trying to say the looters aren't a true representation of all the protesters.

I think.

No, they're trying to say that the extreme isn't representative of any organized group, or even a semi-organized group. That works in any direction. Antifa includes more people like Bill than like looters, and the conservatives include more people like you than like Dylan Roof.

Wendy P.

[billvon 2,991]

1 hour ago, DJL said:

You're responding to me but it can't be said whether EITHER group on the bottom is ANTIFA.  Is that an accusation I've missed?

Since antifa hasn't claimed responsibility for any looting, and since they don't wear uniforms, neither group is definitively antifa.

However, right wing commentators have blamed almost all the looting on antifa.  Hence the left bottom picture.  And since antifa has called for a lot of marches, the right picture likely has them represented.

[billvon 2,991]

2 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

The goal posts moved while you weren't watching - 

I think they are trying to say the looters aren't a true representation of all the protesters.

And if antifa people are looting, they are not a true representation of antifa.

And if police are slashing tires, they do not represent all police.

And if a conservative KKK leader drives his car into a crowd of BLM protesters, he doesn't represent all conservatives.

[nigel99 474]

I’ve been meaning to draw up a little graphic, but since other than a work PC I only have a phone now I’ll try and describe it. Imagine a compass with the four points Far left is West, Far right is East. North represents true centrists. South representing Extremists. 
 

That’s kind of how I view political and religious viewpoints. By the time someone becomes an extremist or terrorist they very rarely represent a left or right viewpoint. Islamic terrorists have been found with porn, drugs and prostitution. They. Sure don’t represent highly devout and peaceful muslims. I’m sure the same is true for ‘right wing’ terrorists, they don’t really represent conservatives. 

The whole spectrum is a continuum. My objective is to try and be North facing :)

Edited June 9, 2020 by nigel99
I hate apple putting words in my mouth

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

43 minutes ago, nigel99 said:

I’ve been meaning to draw up a little graphic, but since other than a work PC I only have a phone now I’ll try and describe it. Imagine a compass with the four points Far left is West, Far right is East. North represents true centrists. South representing Extremists. 
 

That’s kind of how I view political and religious viewpoints. By the time someone becomes an extremist or terrorist they very rarely represent a left or right viewpoint. Islamic terrorists have been found with porn, drugs and prostitution. They. Sure don’t represent highly devout and peaceful muslims. I’m sure the same is true for ‘right wing’ terrorists, they don’t really represent conservatives. 

The whole spectrum is a continuum. My objective is to try and be North facing :)

Interesting.

Keep in mind that if you go far enough (on the earth) either East or West, you end up at the same place.

By the same token, extreme communism or extreme fascism are very similar.

The differences between the Soviet Union under Stalin and Germany under Hitler are fewer than the similarities.

 

[nigel99 474]

1 minute ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Interesting.

Keep in mind that if you go far enough (on the earth) either East or West, you end up at the same place.

By the same token, extreme communism or extreme fascism are very similar.

The differences between the Soviet Union under Stalin and Germany under Hitler are fewer than the similarities.

 

Yes that is my point. It not a perfect model by any means. But I see it play out time and again.

[Phil1111 1,149]

I'm against fascism, against communism, against trump .

Since trump sees ANTIFA under every rock. I joined UP!

Mark Bray, author of Antifa: The Anti-Fascist Handbook, says the modern American Antifa movement began in the 1980s with a group called Anti-Racist Action. Its members confronted neo-Nazi skinheads at punk gigs in the American Midwest and elsewhere. By the early 2000s the Antifa movement was mostly dormant - until the rise of Donald Trump and the alt-right.

I personally hate work boots with steel shanks and steel toes. They are super heavy and uncomfortable to wear all day. But I dug them out just in case.

My Hero!    “He has this kind of thirst for justice,” Mr. Washington said.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Phil1111

[DJL 235]

15 hours ago, billvon said:

Since antifa hasn't claimed responsibility for any looting, and since they don't wear uniforms, neither group is definitively antifa.

However, right wing commentators have blamed almost all the looting on antifa.  Hence the left bottom picture.  And since antifa has called for a lot of marches, the right picture likely has them represented.

We need to work on how we see our spectrum and venn diagrams a bit.  My view is that you and I are not any more Antifa than any typical conservative is a Klan member.  They may operate along the same spectrum but they are very much on a parallel line outside of our diagram.  I realize you marked yourself as identifying as "antifa" so I'm saying I disagree with your definition of what Antifa is.  Agreeing with some of their points doesn't make you Antifa, your similarity ends with that agreement because they have an "AND" written into their code which when we get to the line "Disagree with Coulter" their line continues "AND physically block her from speaking on college campuses and punch people who show up to support her".

If I were somewhere protesting and I saw that it was being taken over by Antifa members I would leave just as I would expect conservatives to leave when Klan members started leading the march.  I do not think either group is "good people".

For the sake of discussion I don't want to make any more hard and fast definitions because it's apparent that I agree more with cliched conservatives about what Antifa is so I want to hear the thoughts of those who disagree with me.

 

[jakee 1,489]

9 minutes ago, DJL said:

For the sake of discussion I don't want to make any more hard and fast definitions because it's apparent that I agree more with cliched conservatives about what Antifa is so I want to hear the thoughts of those who disagree with me.

You can only really define it at the most basic level anyway. Antifa is a movement about being against fascism and taking direct and/or militant action against it. So you're right about it not being enough to just agree with their philosophy to make you part of it. Like being a fan of a sports team isn't the same as being a season ticket holder.

 

I'd disagree that they're anything like the klan though for two reasons, first is that being opposed to an ideology is nothing at all like being opposed to a race or gender or anything else that was set at birth. Second is that antifa isn't an organisation as such, more of a movement. The biggest press attention gets focussed on the most out there stuff done in their name but it doesn't necessarily represent what most antifa members do or support.

[turtlespeed 220]

I'm curious as to what the numbers stand for in these pictures.

 

Then I wonder which of these are only movements