Interesting and Timely Quote

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 minute ago, olofscience said:

... I think your assertion that socialism is a contagious disease is also rather overreacting.

markharju throws around "communism" as if its a physical quantifiable force. When its a social-economic theory thats absent in any pure form anywhere. Just as capitalism is absent in any pure form.

Socialist programs have shown again and again to be necessary for the efficient functioning of societies. Throwing the label of communism doesn't help in markharju making any of his points. In fact if makes him sound like a 22 year old that just finished his first read of The Wealth of Nations and has never considered nations states development since then.

[Guest]

It's more the Pied Piper song of Socialism, meaning "free stuff", not understanding that there is no such thing, and how it preys upon those who have no understanding of how the world really functions, as in "Communism will never work, because people like to own stuff." - Frank Zappa

Conversely, no one cares about things they don't have a personal stake in, which is why socialism has such great ideas that they must be applied at gunpoint. After all, what's a hundred million dead mean, as long as the ideas are great?

Edited June 15, 2020 by Guest

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

markharju throws around "communism" as if its a physical quantifiable force. When its a social-economic theory thats absent in any pure form anywhere. Just as capitalism is absent in any pure form.

Socialist programs have shown again and again to be necessary for the efficient functioning of societies. Throwing the label of communism doesn't help in markharju making any of his points. In fact if makes him sound like a 22 year old that just finished his first read of The Wealth of Nations and has never considered nations states development since then.

I'm more a fan of Ayn Rand. Even so, no one disputes that having some welfare systems in place is preferable to (and leaps and bounds better than) lasseiz-faire capitalism, but those pukes in Seattle are hardcore marxists. I think what bothers me most about them is their naivete, and their sense of entitlement (with all their silly "demands"). They didn't come up with that crap on their own - they're the mouthpieces of the communists in academia, who've never had to work an honest day, build anything, make a payroll, and so forth. That's for we, the plebs, not them.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Guest

[olofscience 489]

5 minutes ago, markharju said:

I'm more a fan of Any Rand.

Interesting, but Ayn Rand did not really have a clue about mathematics or Game Theory. A lot of her theories also don't stand up to scientific scrutiny.

Have you ever heard of the Nash Equilibrium and Nash's Existence Theorem?

[kallend 2,106]

2 hours ago, markharju said:

I served 3-1/2 years in the Balkans, and saw the legacy of communism. It's easy to see for oneself: just go to East Berlin.

Legacy of extreme right wing politics - Berlin 1945:
 

[jakee 1,563]

2 hours ago, markharju said:

#1: Communists have taken over part of a major city in the USA....duh. Elsewhere, they're defacing or destroying monuments of liberty (Lincoln Memorial, WW2 Veterans Memorial). This is what Orwell wrote about.

You weren't quoting Orwell.

But the person you were quoting was describing an uprising orchestrated by the current ruling powers. It's an interesting theory that Trump is really behind all this, but I don't buy it.

Quote

Time was when commies were (deservedly) blacklisted in Hollyweird.

Honestly, I do believe that you're the kind of freedom hating anti-constitutional totalitarian that would have supported McCarthy.

Quote

 

I'm hoping now for a real civil war so I can start (lawfully) erasing communists the way they're trying to erase my country.

And that I don't believe. Lol. The trolling would be more fun if it was more subtle.

[jakee 1,563]

2 hours ago, markharju said:

AND FOR THE RECORD, I MADE *** NO *** REMARKS ABOUT SHOOTING ANYONE - *** YOU DID  *** "in that you are a potential terrorist e.g. shooting up mosques or peaceful demonstrations." I know Billvon will disagree, but I believe this constitutes a personal attack.

I would disagree, because you're lying. You said you wanted to be able to erase communists in a real civil war. Unless you're such a freakin' badass that you're going to wade into combat with nothing but a ka-bar that would involve shooting things at people.

[jakee 1,563]

1 hour ago, markharju said:

Then why are the barricades to Soymalia manned by thugs with AR-15s?

Are they? Apart from the Fox news photoshop I haven's seen any evidence of standing armed guard.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 minute ago, jakee said:

You weren't quoting Orwell.

But the person you were quoting was describing an uprising orchestrated by the current ruling powers. It's an interesting theory that Trump is really behind all this, but I don't buy it.

Honestly, I do believe that you're the kind of freedom hating anti-constitutional totalitarian that would have supported McCarthy.

And that I don't believe. Lol. The trolling would be more fun if it was more subtle.

Right wing SHTF dreamers like Mark, Ron stroke their AR-15s and M-4s hoping that a burning Wendy's restaurant will set all of Atlanta on fire. All of America. That they will finally have the opportunity to start eating their 30 year old barrel of rice and dried beans. Just to imagine that trump has brought their dreams to fruition.

Thats if trump doesn't fall down on the next ramp he has to negotiate and kill himself.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, kallend said:

Legacy of extreme right wing politics - Berlin 1945:
 

No - extreme left: "National Socialism", as in NASDP

 

9 minutes ago, jakee said:

I would disagree, because you're lying. You said you wanted to be able to erase communists in a real civil war. Unless you're such a freakin' badass that you're going to wade into combat with nothing but a ka-bar that would involve shooting things at people.

Maybe I'll just throw fabric chalkboard erasers at them...who are you to put words in my mouth?

Edited June 15, 2020 by Guest

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Right wing SHTF dreamers like Mark, Ron stroke their AR-15s and M-4s hoping that a burning Wendy's restaurant will set all of Atlanta on fire.

Except I don't own any. Full-auto is illegal in my home state so no M-4, unfortunately. Nice try, though. I did qualify as a small-arms marksman during my military service so according to my state's stupid gun laws, I'm eligible to purchase an AR-15, but have no real use for it. Yet.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Guest

[jakee 1,563]

Just now, markharju said:

Maybe I'll just throw chalkboard eraser at them...who are you to put words in my mouth? :-)

I didn't put any words in your mouth. If you're afraid of owning what you said then why did you say it?

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, jakee said:

I didn't put any words in your mouth. If you're afraid of owning what you said then why did you say it?

Precisely to avoid the baseless accusations about shooting people which others have posted here. That's why. Geez.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Guest

[yoink 321]

3 hours ago, markharju said:

I'm hoping now for a real civil war so I can start (lawfully) erasing communists the way they're trying to erase my country.

 

The most likely path to a civil war is Trump refusing to step down if he loses in November, not some protesters in Seattle demanding racial and police reform.

 

And as for socialism 'poisoning everything it touches' I guess you'd say that Germany, Sweden, France, Finland, Norway, Netherlands etc. etc. are all just the WORST places in the world, right?

Well, Unless you're looking at the happiness index of the people there. (https://worldhappiness.report/news/its-a-three-peat-finland-keeps-top-spot-as-happiest-country-in-world/ - Hint, the US isn't even in the top 20)

Or the national debt. (https://www.visualcapitalist.com/69-trillion-of-world-debt-in-one-infographic/ - The US in this one is #1... 'MURICA!)

There are highly successful democratic socialist countries all over the world. Those protesters you're so happy to start 'lawfully removing' aren't advocating socialism. That's an authoritarian rule. They're saying the democratic government should provide basic services to the people.

"Aside from the abolition or defunding of police, other demands associated with the Zone include rent control, the reversal of gentrification, a federal investigation into police brutality, funding of community health"  

 

Some of those are naive. Some are perfectly reasonable. You'd have to be insane to see any of them as a cause for civil war.

[Guest]

Here's another Pole who left Europe to go fight communists:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Zumbach

Jan Zumbach was a founding member of (and eventually commanded) the 303 Squadron (comprised of Polish expatriates) during the Battle of Britain. The end of the war left him no longer wanted in the UK, so like Rafal Ganowicz, he went abroad to fight communists. Due to his Swiss citizenship he was able to escape being repatriated to Poland (where many of his comrades were tortured and murdered by the commie government). They may have gotten him in the end - he died under mysterious circumstances in 1986.

The narrative in popular culture and the media (and academia) is "commies=good, anti-commies=bad", so you probably never saw these men's names until today.

These men went to dangerous places to fight against the crap that's pouring out of Seattle. Tell me how this is the fault of conservatism.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Guest

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, yoink said:

The most likely path to a civil war is Trump refusing to step down if he loses in November, not some protesters in Seattle demanding racial and police reform.

*** Now who's being paranoid? Oh wait, I forgot - he's literally Hitler. Geez.

And as for socialism 'poisoning everything it touches' I guess you'd say that Germany, Sweden, France, Finland, Norway, Netherlands etc. etc. are all just the WORST places in the world, right?

Well, Unless you're looking at the happiness index of the people there. (https://worldhappiness.report/news/its-a-three-peat-finland-keeps-top-spot-as-happiest-country-in-world/ - Hint, the US isn't even in the top 20)

Or the national debt. (https://www.visualcapitalist.com/69-trillion-of-world-debt-in-one-infographic/ - The US in this one is #1... 'MURICA!)

There are highly successful democratic socialist countries all over the world. Those protesters you're so happy to start 'lawfully removing' aren't advocating socialism. That's an authoritarian rule. They're saying the democratic government should provide basic services to the people.

"Aside from the abolition or defunding of police, other demands associated with the Zone include rent control, the reversal of gentrification, a federal investigation into police brutality, funding of community health"  

 

Some of those are naive. Some are perfectly reasonable. You'd have to be insane to see any of them as a cause for civil war.

I was wondering when you would get around to "Germany, Sweden, France, Finland, Norway, Netherlands" - I think you will find that none of those are socialist countries. They have extensive welfare systems, but afaik, none of the states own and control all means means of production. However: no disagreement about the national debt. I'd say it's the biggest single threat to the world right now.

Edited June 15, 2020 by Guest

[yoink 321]

5 minutes ago, markharju said:

I was wondering when you would get around to "Germany, Sweden, France, Finland, Norway, Netherlands" - I think you will find that none of those are socialist countries. They have extensive welfare systems, but afaik, none of the states own and control all means means of production. However: no disagreement about the national debt. I'd say it's the biggest single threat to the world right now.

They are all democratic countries with socialist policies towards welfare which is precisely what the protesters in Seattle are demanding.

True socialism is an authoritarian rule where the government controls absolutely everything and NOBODY in Seattle has been demanding that (unless Trump has turned up recently). 

Do you see the difference?

[jakee 1,563]

52 minutes ago, markharju said:

Precisely to avoid the baseless accusations about shooting people which others have posted here. That's why. Geez.

If you wanted to avoid baseless accusations about shooting people then why did you say you wanted to erase communists in a real civil war? Because that would involve shooting people. 

[jakee 1,563]

25 minutes ago, markharju said:

The narrative in popular culture and the media (and academia) is "commies=good, anti-commies=bad", so you probably never saw these men's names until today.

No it isn't. You're just trolling again.

Quote

These men went to dangerous places to fight against the crap that's pouring out of Seattle. Tell me how this is the fault of conservatism.

Because most of what's happening in Seattle is still a protest against institutional racism. There may be a few radical communists biggybacking on events but they're not the driving force. If you weren;t so scared of socialism you'd see that.

[DJL 235]

2 hours ago, olofscience said:

Interesting, but Ayn Rand did not really have a clue about mathematics or Game Theory. A lot of her theories also don't stand up to scientific scrutiny.

Have you ever heard of the Nash Equilibrium and Nash's Existence Theorem?

Her economic concepts were simplistic beyond reality.  She had good warnings to make about the economic and societal systems from which she and her family fled (The Soviet Union and elsewhere) via cautionary tales but when it came to explaining what TO do she could only prop up her points by creating fictitious worlds in which people acted in a comically monolithic fashion.  Her Opus, Atlas Shrugged reduces people to either lazy socialists or fanatical perfectionists.  There was no mention of the the idea of economic stratification or monopolies and if someone couldn't produce the absolute finest product of any type they would be content to leave that field and work at a sandwich shop making the finest hamburgers.  It also leaves no room for the spectrum of individual taste in a product or even the budget with which various groups would choose to build something.  It's as if every bike and bridge and screwdriver should be made with only the finest steel or not be built at all.  It's as if any art or invention should not exist unless it could immediately prove to be economical upon inception so there should therefore never be any societal or tax based funding toward science or the arts.

[billvon 3,070]

6 hours ago, markharju said:

You're just pretending.

#1: Communists have taken over part of a major city in the USA....

"It's like saying 'communist' but with a cock in your mouth?"

Do you dislike gays so much that the worst insult you can think of is to call someone gay?

You'd be at home with the Taliban.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

4 hours ago, markharju said:

Once again, nice thoughts, but the escalation we are witnessing can very rapidly get out of control, as with the quote at the top of this thread. I made a remark elsewhere about juvenocracy. I believe we're seeing it in action in Seattle.

You would think if capitalism is so great this wouldn't be happening......

Easy to blame communism, but completely misses the point.

[ryoder 1,590]

2 hours ago, DJL said:

Her economic concepts were simplistic beyond reality.  She had good warnings to make about the economic and societal systems from which she and her family fled (The Soviet Union and elsewhere) via cautionary tales but when it came to explaining what TO do she could only prop up her points by creating fictitious worlds in which people acted in a comically monolithic fashion.  Her Opus, Atlas Shrugged reduces people to either lazy socialists or fanatical perfectionists.  There was no mention of the the idea of economic stratification or monopolies and if someone couldn't produce the absolute finest product of any type they would be content to leave that field and work at a sandwich shop making the finest hamburgers.  It also leaves no room for the spectrum of individual taste in a product or even the budget with which various groups would choose to build something.  It's as if every bike and bridge and screwdriver should be made with only the finest steel or not be built at all.  It's as if any art or invention should not exist unless it could immediately prove to be economical upon inception so there should therefore never be any societal or tax based funding toward science or the arts.

Agreed. And the concept of Open Source Software probably would have given her a mental breakdown.

[DJL 235]

32 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Agreed. And the concept of Open Source Software probably would have given her a mental breakdown.

She was a woman, who despite much fame during her own time because of her pontification over economic concepts, could not even manage her own finances and ended up penniless and living off of the exact government funded social security programs she spent her life deriding.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ryoder said:

Agreed. And the concept of Open Source Software probably would have given her a mental breakdown.

+1