Jump Run Dilemma - What Would You Do?

[Diogenes 0]

The PAC 750 had a two-way group; myself, very experienced, and a young lady with only 100 jumps. The remainder of the plane was filled with tandems. Upon reaching jump altitude a thin cloud layer had moved in/developed and covered everything for miles around at about 5,000'. You could not see through it anywhere. There were no holes. It wasn't going away any time soon. Bit it was thin, and you would be opening underneath it, with plenty of time to orient, find the airport, and land there. On jump run, I gave up visually spotting the airport. I trusted the pilot's GPS spot, and the surrounding countryside was mostly open prairie, except for a small town on one side.

I wanted to jump, and thought the new gal would be safe. But that would set a bad example for the new girl, and she might not handle those conditions well. I backed off and told her we were riding the plane down. It was a violation of FARs and BSRs. I didn't want to set a bad example for her. I informed the tandems of the clouds, told them the wind was from the south, the sun to the east, so to hold into the wind above the cloud layer to avoid getting pushed miles downwind, just keep the sun off your left. All the tandems then moved to the door one at a time, jumped, and landed safely on the airport landing area. On the ground the tandem masters and passengers gushed and marveled at how beautiful the solid carpet of white cloud "snow" was.

What would you have done?

Multiple votes allowed; 1 for the two-way, 1 for the tandems.

[gowlerk 2,191]

If the pilot allowed it I would have jumped the whole load. In Canada or the US it would not be legal. I would have done it anyway. I fail to see how letting the tandems go in any way was a better example for the 100 jump girl. If it is good enough for the tandems it certainly would have been good enough for her. I strongly suspect your decision was affected by her gender.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Diogenes 0]

gowlerk

If the pilot allowed it I would have jumped the whole load. In Canada or the US it would not be legal. I would have done it anyway. I fail to see how letting the tandems go in any way was a better example for the 100 jump girl. If it is good enough for the tandems it certainly would have been good enough for her. I strongly suspect your decision was affected by her gender.

Ah, but I had no control over what the tandems do - they make their own decisions.

As for the newbie girl, my decision was affected by her inexperience, trying to keep her safe and teach her to make correct safety decisions. I would have done the same thing with a 100-jump male.

On the other hand, if my partners had been highly experienced, yeah, we would have jumped.

[obelixtim 150]

Diogenes

***If the pilot allowed it I would have jumped the whole load. In Canada or the US it would not be legal. I would have done it anyway. I fail to see how letting the tandems go in any way was a better example for the 100 jump girl. If it is good enough for the tandems it certainly would have been good enough for her. I strongly suspect your decision was affected by her gender.

Ah, but I had no control over what the tandems do - they make their own decisions.

As for the newbie girl, my decision was affected by her inexperience, trying to keep her safe and teach her to make correct safety decisions. I would have done the same thing with a 100-jump male.

On the other hand, if my partners had been highly experienced, yeah, we would have jumped.

100 jumps is not THAT inexperienced. When I started, 100 jumps was almost skygod status.

I would have jumped, and let her jump too. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to allow people to do something slightly different...it builds their experience.

If people are only ever exposed to perfect conditions, it puts them at a disadvantage when conditions are less than perfect, e.g an emergency exit for whatever reason when there is a lot of cloud around.

Now I'm not advocating doing stupidly dangerous things, but in your case things were reasonably benign...GPS spot, cloud layer reasonably high, open spaces below.

As for the FAR violation, the tandems did it anyway, plus its extremely rare to be pinged for it, because an observer on the ground can never prove that you couldn't see the DZ. The pilots exit calls on the radio would alert other air traffic, if any. Technically, you were correct, but at 90% of DZs around the world most people would jump.

If you decided to descend, why not a run in at 5 grand and a hop and pop?

Geez, we used to do that at 2 grand.....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[bibliwho 1]

Hmm ... All those tandems, presumably a bunch with video from the air, ground or both, popping through that cloud layer. Must have been pretty thin.

Seems like a big roll of the dice that your jump won't come to the attention of your local FAA Cloud Czar.

Think you made the right call as long as the regs are what they are. Then again, I'm a newb who gets most of his information from Skydive Radio and these forums ;-)

[pchapman 279]

Clearly it depends what local custom is, whether it is normal to go through some cloud at the DZ.

Given a DZ where one will jump through cloud, that thin layer would have been reasonable to jump through, and the newbie wouldn't even have been on their own since it was a 2 way.

You were conservative and looking out for the newbie, and that's not a bad thing.

Even if you decided to jump solo or in the 2 way, you would want to give the newbie a choice because anyone can choose to ride the plane down.

It is a problem for new jumpers though: What do they do if they are taught one set of rules but see different behaviour, and are not taught how to deal with those non-normal conditions?

For example, the USPA SIM says nothing about jumping into solid cloud layers, or what to do under canopy in cloud. Not even as a special case under some 'emergency procedures' heading.

It is also a grey area for DZ operations: Everyone needs to be somewhat on board with how things work at the DZ. Otherwise a jumper could ask why the pilot kept climbing if a solid layer was forming under them; they should have descended below it immediately. For it wasn't a case where the pilot could turn on the green light and maybe the jumpers could see a legal hole of at least 4000 feet diameter perfectly placed (to maintain 2000' clear of cloud horizontally).

With a bigger aircraft it isn't like it sometime was in a C-182, where the pilot and jumpers could discuss the matter before climbing up between clouds, to come to a mutual decision -- "Hey these clouds are really building up. You want a hop and pop below them, or do you want to climb? Of course you'll pay for whatever altitude we get even if we have to descend later."

[obelixtim 150]

bibliwho

Hmm ... All those tandems, presumably a bunch with video from the air, ground or both, popping through that cloud layer. Must have been pretty thin.

Seems like a big roll of the dice that your jump won't come to the attention of your local FAA Cloud Czar.

Think you made the right call as long as the regs are what they are. Then again, I'm a newb who gets most of his information from Skydive Radio and these forums ;-)

I doubt FAA have a "Cloud Czar", and unless there is an incident, I doubt they'd be interested. If they go after anyone, it would be the pilot.

Having said that, it is almost impossible to prove what the jumpers could or couldn't see from the plane, much less prove it was deliberate.

Even if you can see the DZ, free fall drift can take you through cloud, so proving intent is almost impossible.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[sammielu 3]

Why did the pilot take you above the clouds?

A solid layer building during flight means there is a lot going on in a short period of time; you don't know how thick that layer is, and 5k is pretty close to break off altitude. Riding through a cloud when you can hold on to your jumpmate and break off below for canopy separation and visibility is one thing, but being able to do that depends on the jump plan and the experience level of the jumpers. You don't want to lose her location in the cloud and then be underneath it at/below break off with no idea where she is. I wouldn't have jumped unless a hop n pop under the clouds was an option.

The tandem are a different situation. Tandems don't have much horizontal movement during the jump and get separatioin from each other at exit. Let the TIs (and pilot in command) make their own considerations of location, possible surrounding hills that change elevation, and local airplane traffic.

[Unstable 9]

Jump and then act surprised if anybody asks about the clouds.

=========Shaun ==========

[obelixtim 150]

Unstable

Jump and then act surprised if anybody asks about the clouds.

What clouds?

One of my old jumpmasters used to have a saying: "Clouds don't have teeth".

And yes, we did lots of stuff that would be frowned on today.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Unstable 9]

Quote

What clouds?

We had a big hole, Didn't you see it?

=========Shaun ==========

[obelixtim 150]

Unstable

Quote

What clouds?

We had a big hole, Didn't you see it?

"What civil twilight? The sun was still shining at 15 grand"

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[keithbar 1]

Clouds. What clouds ? It's merely industrial haze

i have on occasion been accused of pulling low . My response. Naw I wasn't low I'm just such a big guy I look closer than I really am .

[obelixtim 150]

keithbar

Clouds. What clouds ? It's merely industrial haze

Jumping in China, that was actually true. Clear skies, but you couldn't see the ground through the coal smoke layer. You could smell it as you went through 6 grand.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[m529gft 0]

In the UK, the light goes on we generally just get out, unless there has been very thick cloud.

And they call us the nanny state

Werewolves not swearwolves

[riggerrob 643]

Depends ........ upon how much experience I have at that DZ and how much experience I have with that pilot.

My first static-line jump was delayed - for a week - by a solid low layer of clouds. To this day I will not tell a sub-A jumper to exit over solid clouds.

OTOH I did my 100th jump when a small, lonely, puffy, cumulous cloud prevented us from seeing the airport. Fortunately, we still had plenty of slant vision so that we could see enough landmarks to conform that we were near the airport.
For the following 30 years, those "spotting around clouds" skills - learned in Nova Scotia - have proven handy at a dozen other DZs.
Now I depend more on "pre-spotting" than looking straight down. For the last 5 minutes before exit, I like to keep my eyes outside the airplane, checking for bridge "A" and bridge "B" and bridge "C" to tell me that we are close to the DZ before I open the door.

From a legal perspective ...... rules were written after a disasterous jump during the 1960s that saw a dozen(?) jumpers drown in one of the Great Lakes. That disaster caused a rigid rule about all jumps needing to stay VFR.
Fortunately, ADF, VOR, VORTAC, LORAN, INS, radar, GPS, etc. electronic navigation aids have improved so much that they exceeded the accuracy of the human eye around the turn of the century. Now modern jumpers blindly trust GPS.
The ideal spotting technique involves trusting GPS but confirming with landmarks around the dropzone.

[Lineset 0]

Jump blindly on the green light at your peril.

[bibliwho 1]

***One of my old jumpmasters used to have a saying: "Clouds don't have teeth".

Yeah, but other planes are hard and have propellers :-)

[Unstable 9]

Quote

In the UK, the light goes on we generally just get out, unless there has been very thick cloud.

I would imagine if you don't learn to bust clouds in England you would never jump.

=========Shaun ==========

[obelixtim 150]

bibliwho

***One of my old jumpmasters used to have a saying: "Clouds don't have teeth".

Quote

Yeah, but other planes are hard and have propellers :-

)

Jeez, I never would have thought of that.......

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[michaelmullins 81]

***"From a legal perspective ...... rules were written after a disasterous jump during the 1960s that saw a dozen(?) jumpers drown in one of the Great Lakes. That disaster caused a rigid rule about all jumps needing to stay VFR."

Actually, no new rules were written. The same rules were in effect then as now. The jump was totally illegal under the rules then as now, rules have not changed.

[michaelmullins 81]

***"From a legal perspective ...... rules were written after a disasterous jump during the 1960s that saw a dozen(?) jumpers drown in one of the Great Lakes. That disaster caused a rigid rule about all jumps needing to stay VFR."

[gowlerk 2,191]

Quote

Actually, no new rules were written. The same rules were in effect then as now. The jump was totally illegal under the rules then as now, rules have not changed.

I'm not completely sure on this. But from a Canadian perspective the rules were changed. At least that is how I've learned the legend of the event.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[michaelmullins 81]

gowlerk

Quote

Actually, no new rules were written. The same rules were in effect then as now. The jump was totally illegal under the rules then as now, rules have not changed.

I'm not completely sure on this. But from a Canadian perspective the rules were changed. At least that is how I've learned the legend of the event.

Quote

The jump was in the US under US rules. I have no idea what the rules in Canada were at the time but I seriously doubt that Canadian rules at that time would have allowed this jump under those same conditions.

• Quote

[Diogenes 0]

riggerrob

Now modern jumpers blindly trust GPS. The ideal spotting technique involves trusting GPS but confirming with landmarks around the dropzone.

Ditto. I've seen pilots screw up a GPS spot. For example, punching in the coordinates of a nearby airport, instead of the one you're supposed to jump at. He climbs to altitude, turns on the yellow light, and we open the door to spot. And then the quizzical looks start; "What the hell are we doing over here"? Yeah, wrong GPS spot. Pilot then pulled up the actual correct numbers, and flew to the correct spot, jump run repeated correctly.

The thing is, the pilot also needs to confirm with his eyeballs that the ground matches what he expects on GPS.

So, the moral of this story is, that if you have that solid cloud layer and can't visually confirm a correct spot, you don't really know. You could actually be somewhere else. And then you pop through the cloud layer and realize you're actually over an alligator infested swamp...

One more thing. GPS is just a point on the ground. It doesn't factor into account winds. The correct spot incorporating winds requires an experienced pilot and some trial and error. Usually by the 2nd or 3rd load of the day they've got it dialed in pretty accurately. But for load 1, no bets by me. I still like the ability to communicate old fashioned heading corrections to the pilot to get things right. A jumper in the door can see wind drift better than the pilot. I hate calling up for "5 right", only to have the pilot ignore you because he's already on his GPS track and thinks his electronics know better...