Are $399 Reserves Legit

[Mike 90 1]

I see a current posting for used PD-R Tempo reserves for $399, and I'm of the mindset that if it's too good to be true then it is, but I'm also new to the sport.

This is not necessarily an area where I would skimp, but I'm looking for some guidance. Are they legit, and if so, why so cheap. Any other guidance or tips would be greatly appreciated, I'm trying to purchase the canopies so I can order my container. 

[JoeWeber 2,720]

11 minutes ago, Mike 90 said:

I see a current posting for used PD-R Tempo reserves for $399, and I'm of the mindset that if it's too good to be true then it is, but I'm also new to the sport.

This is not necessarily an area where I would skimp, but I'm looking for some guidance. Are they legit, and if so, why so cheap. Any other guidance or tips would be greatly appreciated, I'm trying to purchase the canopies so I can order my container. 

#1. Even if they were manufactured by the Legit Reserve Company and being sold by USPA get a trusted rigger to examine the thing for airworthiness and confirm that she will pack it for you.

In my mind there really isn't a legal grey zone. (see attached FAA rulings) The Fed's ruled that no life limits or additional maintenance instructions can be retroactively imposed on things they regulate outside of the NPRM and AD processes. In plain speak, if the life limit was not imposed when the thing was born only the FAA can add new limits. This came about because all of aviation can be a real shit show sometimes. Because the Fed's are busy with other things Aircraft and Parachute manufacturers were able to change the rules years after a thing was born and bought.

Because we're all scared of dying we all just went along with it. The problem is that whereas some manufacturers were really doing what was the right thing to do others were just out to sell more stuff. 

Fast forward to 2008 and 2010 and we received favorable rulings from the Fed's that the manufacturers shouldn't be out there doing the Fed's job. So now, if your airplane was born in 2000 you only need to do what the 2000 maintenance manual requires plus whatever the Fed's added on. But you do not need to do what the Factory requires of 2001 aircraft because they have different FAA Approved Maintenance Data.

So it sort of boils down to whether your rigger will certify it and your comfort level. Would you rather jump a 20 year old reserve that's never seen sunlight or the one I aired out every few day's when I was learning to Psycho Pack?

Hopefully this helped some.

 

 

 

 

FAA Ruling 2.pdf FAA Rulings 1.pdf

[gowlerk 2,192]

The guy selling Tempos from Europe is legit and has been doing it for years. He buys them in countries that impose a 20 year life limit on parachute gear and sells them in places that have no such rule. Some riggers, especially large rigging lofts that also happen to be gear dealers will refuse to pack them even in the US, although there is no real reason other than fear and perhaps greed.

However, with that said, $400 USD plus shipping from Europe is far more than a 20 year old Tempo is worth. If you were to buy one and then turn around and try to sell it you would not likely be able to get more than about $300 total with shipping. Also, your question asks about "PD-R Tempos". There is no such thing. A PD-R is simply PD's standard reserve canopy, made by Performance Design. A Tempo is a reserve canopy that was made by PISA, (Parachute Industries of South Africa) up until they were bought out by Aerodyne sometime in the early 2000s. Aerodyne discontinued the Tempo and only made Smart brand reserves from then on.

Again, 400 USD is not cheap for a 20 year old canopy. Especially an orphaned and somewhat obsolete one. I pack many Tempos for many customers. They are all more than 20 years old. They are legit, but may not be what you want.

Edited June 25, 2020 by gowlerk

[riggerrob 643]

The first life limits were imposed by the US Army ... for two reasons.

First, they wanted to remove obsolete parachutes from their warehouses.

Secondly, they were under pressure - from the military-industrial complex - to buy more parachutes.

The first civilian parachute life limits were published in the after-math of the acid-mesh problems that occurred during the 1980s. A couple of American manufacturers (GQ Security and Pioneer) left the skydiving market and told customers not to jump any of their equipment more than 15 years old. It was a subtle way of grounding round reserves suspected of suffering from acid-mesh degradation. Now that those suspected parachutes are something like 35 years old, you would be .... silly .... to still jump them.

Some young riggers refuse to repack older models of parachutes because it is difficult to find Service Bulletins that were published before the inter-web was accessible to civilians.

While I may have earned my rigger's license before the acid-mesh problem reared its ugly head, I have not touched any of them in a decade. If you bring me a round canopy sewn during the acid-mesh era (early 1980s) I will tell you to donate it to that fine museum in Langley.

Hah!

Hah!

Parachute harnesses and containers get dragged around a lot and fade in sunlight, so few are still serviceable of 20 years of steady use. Pilot emergency parachutes are generally retired after 20 years because they are faded, frayed and filthy.

OTOH, the certified reserve canopies packed into those PEPs often look near-new after 20 years.

Only your local rigger can tell you if a parachute is still airworthy.Good riggers err on the side of caution.

[Mike 90 1]

16 hours ago, riggerrob said:

The first life limits were imposed by the US Army ... for two reasons.

First, they wanted to remove obsolete parachutes from their warehouses.

Secondly, they were under pressure - from the military-industrial complex - to buy more parachutes.

The first civilian parachute life limits were published in the after-math of the acid-mesh problems that occurred during the 1980s. A couple of American manufacturers (GQ Security and Pioneer) left the skydiving market and told customers not to jump any of their equipment more than 15 years old. It was a subtle way of grounding round reserves suspected of suffering from acid-mesh degradation. Now that those suspected parachutes are something like 35 years old, you would be .... silly .... to still jump them.

Some young riggers refuse to repack older models of parachutes because it is difficult to find Service Bulletins that were published before the inter-web was accessible to civilians.

While I may have earned my rigger's license before the acid-mesh problem reared its ugly head, I have not touched any of them in a decade. If you bring me a round canopy sewn during the acid-mesh era (early 1980s) I will tell you to donate it to that fine museum in Langley.

Hah!

Hah!

Parachute harnesses and containers get dragged around a lot and fade in sunlight, so few are still serviceable of 20 years of steady use. Pilot emergency parachutes are generally retired after 20 years because they are faded, frayed and filthy.

OTOH, the certified reserve canopies packed into those PEPs often look near-new after 20 years.

Only your local rigger can tell you if a parachute is still airworthy.Good riggers err on the side of caution.

Thanks for your perspective on this, it was definitely helpful. Interesting history as well. 

[Mike 90 1]

On 6/24/2020 at 5:06 PM, JoeWeber said:

#1. Even if they were manufactured by the Legit Reserve Company and being sold by USPA get a trusted rigger to examine the thing for airworthiness and confirm that she will pack it for you.

In my mind there really isn't a legal grey zone. (see attached FAA rulings) The Fed's ruled that no life limits or additional maintenance instructions can be retroactively imposed on things they regulate outside of the NPRM and AD processes. In plain speak, if the life limit was not imposed when the thing was born only the FAA can add new limits. This came about because all of aviation can be a real shit show sometimes. Because the Fed's are busy with other things Aircraft and Parachute manufacturers were able to change the rules years after a thing was born and bought.

Because we're all scared of dying we all just went along with it. The problem is that whereas some manufacturers were really doing what was the right thing to do others were just out to sell more stuff. 

Fast forward to 2008 and 2010 and we received favorable rulings from the Fed's that the manufacturers shouldn't be out there doing the Fed's job. So now, if your airplane was born in 2000 you only need to do what the 2000 maintenance manual requires plus whatever the Fed's added on. But you do not need to do what the Factory requires of 2001 aircraft because they have different FAA Approved Maintenance Data.

So it sort of boils down to whether your rigger will certify it and your comfort level. Would you rather jump a 20 year old reserve that's never seen sunlight or the one I aired out every few day's when I was learning to Psycho Pack?

Hopefully this helped some.

 

 

 

 

FAA Ruling 2.pdf 2.01 MB · 0 downloads FAA Rulings 1.pdf 3.59 MB · 0 downloads

Thanks for the thoughtful response and attachments, it much appreciated.

[Mike 90 1]

On 6/24/2020 at 8:11 PM, gowlerk said:

The guy selling Tempos from Europe is legit and has been doing it for years. He buys them in countries that impose a 20 year life limit on parachute gear and sells them in places that have no such rule. Some riggers, especially large rigging lofts that also happen to be gear dealers will refuse to pack them even in the US, although there is no real reason other than fear and perhaps greed.

However, with that said, $400 USD plus shipping from Europe is far more than a 20 year old Tempo is worth. If you were to buy one and then turn around and try to sell it you would not likely be able to get more than about $300 total with shipping. Also, your question asks about "PD-R Tempos". There is no such thing. A PD-R is simply PD's standard reserve canopy, made by Performance Design. A Tempo is a reserve canopy that was made by PISA, (Parachute Industries of South Africa) up until they were bought out by Aerodyne sometime in the early 2000s. Aerodyne discontinued the Tempo and only made Smart brand reserves from then on.

Again, 400 USD is not cheap for a 20 year old canopy. Especially an orphaned and somewhat obsolete one. I pack many Tempos for many customers. They are all more than 20 years old. They are legit, but may not be what you want.

Your response was hugely helpful. Just because you can do something, doesn't necessarily mean that you should or that it's smart. I also never would have guessed that the price was above market since it seems so low.  Thanks again for the support.