Biden's VP

[jakee 1,489]

7 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Jakee, it’s the edge of calling Turtle racist, and a personal attack. The argument isn’t worth “winning.”

Wendy, that's not my fault.

 

The criticism Turtle initially referred to is racist in nature. The fact that he's now arguing that it isn't, while pushing the validity of the criticism means that he is putting himself closer and closer to the point of being called a racist.

 

Imagine if someone posted a paraphrased argument from Mein Kampf and it was pointed out that it was a Nazi sentiment. Imagine the person posting it claimed it wasn't Nazi and doubled down on his support for the argument. Does everyone else then have to immediately abandon that conversation because the guy has manufactured a situation where any relevant response would be a personal attack? It makes no sense. 

 

We have to be able to be honest about the arguments presented here, otherwise you generate a situation where the most extreme views see the least critical response.

[turtlespeed 220]

16 hours ago, jakee said:

 You think he became successful because he was inspired by knowing he had a white slave owning ancestor? Dude, wow. I mean, WOW!!! You might want to reconsider that statement because it's racist as fuck.

Sorry - I will not allow you to label me as a racist.

I will argue until the internet stops.

Its ridiculous and absurd.  It is however your MO.

Anyway.

Her father claims the influence and inspiration himself in his essay.

"As a child growing up in Jamaica, I often heard it said, by my parents and family friends: “memba whe yu cum fram”. To this day, I continue to retain the deep social awareness and strong sense of identity which that grassroots Jamaican philosophy fed in me. "

"My roots go back, within my lifetime, to my paternal grandmother Miss Chrishy (née Christiana Brown, descendant of Hamilton Brown who is on record as plantation and slave owner and founder of Brown’s Town) and to my maternal grandmother Miss Iris (née Iris Finegan, farmer and educator, from Aenon Town and Inverness, ancestry unknown to me)."

I'm sorry Jakee.  You just won't get this to fly, this Racist title you are desperately trying to tag me with.

You're actions are as deplorable.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 minute ago, turtlespeed said:

Sorry - I will not allow you to label me as a racist.

I will argue until the internet stops.

Its ridiculous and absurd.  It is however your MO.

Anyway.

Her father claims the influence and inspiration himself in his essay.

"As a child growing up in Jamaica, I often heard it said, by my parents and family friends: “memba whe yu cum fram”. To this day, I continue to retain the deep social awareness and strong sense of identity which that grassroots Jamaican philosophy fed in me. "

"My roots go back, within my lifetime, to my paternal grandmother Miss Chrishy (née Christiana Brown, descendant of Hamilton Brown who is on record as plantation and slave owner and founder of Brown’s Town) and to my maternal grandmother Miss Iris (née Iris Finegan, farmer and educator, from Aenon Town and Inverness, ancestry unknown to me)."

I'm sorry Jakee.  You just won't get this to fly, this Racist title you are desperately trying to tag me with.

You're actions are as deplorable.

You don't need to be labeled a racist to be one.

[turtlespeed 220]

7 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

You don't need to be labeled a racist to be one.

No - you don't.

And just because someone want to insist you are doesn't make it true either.

Edited August 26, 2020 by turtlespeed

[kallend 2,026]

11 minutes ago, turtlespeed said:

Sorry - I will not allow you to label me as a racist.

 

I bet you even have a friend or two who are not white.

[turtlespeed 220]

Just now, kallend said:

I bet you even have a friend or two who are not white.

May be.

[jakee 1,489]

6 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Sorry - I will not allow you to label me as a racist.

Then you'd better stop doing it.

Quote

Her father claims the influence and inspiration himself in his essay.

No, he doesn't, he really doesn't. That's an absurd twisting of the words he wrote that can only be driven by a desire to give a white man credit for a black man's success.

Quote

I'm sorry Jakee.  You just won't get this to fly, this Racist title you are desperately trying to tag me with.

You're actions are as deplorable.

Desperate or obvious? You came into this thread complaining that the networks weren't giving credence and airtime to a racist attack on the black credentials of Kamala Harris, even though you have since admitted that rationally, the hypocrisy the racist attackers allege couldn't possibly exist.

 

You tell me what sounds deplorable there.

[Coreece 190]

6 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Sorry - I will not allow you to label me as a racist.

I've been down this road with normiss many times and it's my response to him that was initial responsible for my permaban.  Just let it go, no one really thinks you're a racist.  I just think Jakee wants you to think  more about what you're actually arguing about.

Trust me, it's better than dealing with normiss.

 

[wmw999 2,444]

5 hours ago, Coreece said:

I've been down this road with normiss many times and it's my response to him that was initial responsible for my permaban.  Just let it go, no one really thinks you're a racist.  I just think Jakee wants you to think  more about what you're actually arguing about.

Trust me, it's better than dealing with normiss.

 

If I could react to this post ten time I would. Thanks, Coreece.

Folks, if we don't stop this dancing around the name-calling line, as well as the defensive doubling down on ridiculous claims, the thread is going away, or at least a large part of it. And think of all the brilliant reasoning that would be lost forever...

Wendy P.

[kallend 2,026]

2 hours ago, wmw999 said:

If I could react to this post ten time I would. Thanks, Coreece.

Folks, if we don't stop this dancing around the name-calling line, as well as the defensive doubling down on ridiculous claims, the thread is going away, or at least a large part of it. And think of all the brilliant reasoning that would be lost forever...

Wendy P.

We already lost the "TRUMP MUST GO" thread due to persistent bickering between two people.

But TRUMP MUST GO.

[olofscience 480]

On 8/26/2020 at 1:38 AM, turtlespeed said:

How could that possibly make her a hypocrite?

If you don't think this makes her a hypocrite, why in god's name did you argue about it for so long?

If I keep complaining that the media doesn't cover the "controversial" questions flat earthers are asking, you'd assume I was a flat earther myself.

[turtlespeed 220]

8 hours ago, olofscience said:

If you don't think this makes her a hypocrite, why in god's name did you argue about it for so long?

If I keep complaining that the media doesn't cover the "controversial" questions flat earthers are asking, you'd assume I was a flat earther myself.

Flat earth isn't a hot social topic right now,

[billvon 2,990]

8 hours ago, olofscience said:

If you don't think this makes her a hypocrite, why in god's name did you argue about it for so long?

You're not _that_ new here.  That's what Turtle does.

[nigel99 471]

On 8/26/2020 at 8:06 AM, JoeWeber said:

Why not call a racist a racist? What's wrong with winning. Seriously Mod's, SC is becoming a reflection of the new crappy world we live in: be nice at TSA, no more back talking the cops, and don't offend aunt Esther who believes unbelievable bullshit. How about a new rule: if you can't take a jab post in Bonfire.

One of the nice things about SC and why I am still here is that we can hold different views and stay respectful. There are plenty of places where jabs and the like are the norm. 
I would rather people take their jabs and sea lion comments to personal messages and leave the threads to the topic and subject matter.

As for Jakee’s comment about politicians. I did not like Tony Blair’s policies, however he was possibly the most skilled politician at the art of equivocation. There was a BBC segment by a prof who wrote a book about it. It always amazed me that Tony Blair could leave both sides believing he was on their side. 

[olofscience 480]

7 hours ago, turtlespeed said:

Flat earth isn't a hot social topic right now,

That's not even an argument to my point.

Do you think by complaining about the lack of coverage about Harris' heritage, you're providing a voice to poor, oppressed, white conservatives who want to talk about it?

[wmw999 2,444]

On 8/25/2020 at 8:06 PM, JoeWeber said:

Why not call a racist a racist? What's wrong with winning. Seriously Mod's, SC is becoming a reflection of the new crappy world we live in: be nice at TSA, no more back talking the cops, and don't offend aunt Esther who believes unbelievable bullshit. How about a new rule: if you can't take a jab post in Bonfire.

Coming back to this. What's wrong is that it's against the specific rules of this forum, a forum which is owned by an owner who has the right to set rules. And changing those rules so that more open attack is OK might change the membership significantly. I, for one, would almost certainly leave. "No loss," you might say, which is true, but why not go make or find your own no-holds-barred forum?

But the intent of this was originally Sangiro's back porch, where people could chat and have fun, kind of like at the DZ. Do you kick conservatives who don't keep their mouths shut off your DZ? Do you disassociate yourself from relatives who don't agree with you sufficiently? Or do you just find something else to talk about, while exposing what you believe?

You don't convince people by badgering and bullying them. You might cow them into acquiescence, but as soon as you're not right there to supervise, they go back to their own feelings, only with an addional resentment from having been bullied.

The same thing works for liberals and conservatives. Stand on your strengths, not others' weaknesses.

Wendy P.

[JoeWeber 2,720]

1 hour ago, wmw999 said:

Do you kick conservatives who don't keep their mouths shut off your DZ? Do you disassociate yourself from relatives who don't agree with you sufficiently?

False equivalency. For example, I don't go to internet forums to jump with my team or have Thanksgiving dinner with my nieces. Here is different. Also, I am not suggesting a full blown battle royal. I simply don't think that calling a racist a racist when they're spouting racism on an internet forum crosses any necessary line. Given that racists invariably seem to not notice that they're racists it's really a sort of public service. On the other hand, we are allowed to call misogynists misogynists and make up funny names for crackpot conspiracy theorists which is good. 

Whatever Sangiro's dreams were it's his playpen still and his rules are the rules. Back to family, maybe we all would be better off today if we had told Uncle Agnew he was a Trump bonehead and a dangerous conspiracy theorist when the occasions arose.

Edited August 28, 2020 by JoeWeber

[nigel99 471]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

False equivalency. For example, I don't go to internet forums to jump with my team or have Thanksgiving dinner with my nieces. Here is different. Also, I am not suggesting a full blown battle royal. I simply don't think that calling a racist a racist when they're spouting racism on an internet forum crosses any necessary line. Given that racists invariably seem to not notice that they're racists it's really a sort of public service. On the other hand, we are allowed to call misogynists misogynists and make up funny names for crackpot conspiracy theorists which is good. 

Whatever Sangiro's dreams were was it's his playpen still and his rules are the rules. Back to family, maybe we all would be better off today if we had told Uncle Agnew he was a Trump bonehead and a dangerous conspiracy theorist when the occasions arose.

A couple of things. Firstly for the most part one thing we all have in common is that we are or were skydivers. So Wendy’a comment is very relevant to drop zones. Many of the longer term posters here have met and know each other outside of here. 

Secondly if the intent is to call someone out in the hope that they will change their views, doing it in public is the wrong way to go. Publicly deriding someone is likely to get them on the defensive and achieve nothing. We’ve got a private messaging function here. I think someone is far more likely to be open to adjusting their views when respectfully engaged in a private conversation. 

[SkyDekker 1,465]

7 hours ago, wmw999 said:

But the intent of this was originally Sangiro's back porch, where people could chat and have fun, kind of like at the DZ. Do you kick conservatives who don't keep their mouths shut off your DZ? Do you disassociate yourself from relatives who don't agree with you sufficiently? Or do you just find something else to talk about, while exposing what you believe?

Probably not. However I would kick somebody off my DZ for being overtly racist, even if I am not black myself. Here being overtly racist is just fine, as long as at isn't immediately directed at a non-white poster, because then it would be a personal attack.

Edited August 28, 2020 by SkyDekker

[JoeWeber 2,720]

56 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

However I would kick somebody off my DZ for being overtly racist

And I have, more than once. We also proudly fly a huge feather flag rainbow in support of all of our LGBTQ brothers and sisters. Pretty much it's no secret where I'm coming from.

[jakee 1,489]

6 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Coming back to this. What's wrong is that it's against the specific rules of this forum, a forum which is owned by an owner who has the right to set rules. And changing those rules so that more open attack is OK might change the membership significantly. I, for one, would almost certainly leave.

I don’t understand what change you’re talking about. I don’t remember ever not being allowed to call a racist statement racist. What about you, have you never called out a sexist argument?

[wmw999 2,444]

Calling it a racist statement is OK. Implying further down that only racists say racist things, etc crosses is farther down.
As it happens, I think the “Kamala gets an advantage from her slave-owning ancestor “ argument is utterly stupid and partisan whataboutism, but wouldnt call it racist per se.
OTOH, a recent comment about BLM riots as being “like animals” got called out very rightly. So some of this is opinion. 

Wendy P. 

[turtlespeed 220]

13 hours ago, olofscience said:

That's not even an argument to my point.

Do you think by complaining about the lack of coverage about Harris' heritage, you're providing a voice to poor, oppressed, white conservatives who want to talk about it?

No, I don't.

[kallend 2,026]

3 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Calling it a racist statement is OK. Implying further down that only racists say racist things, etc crosses is farther down.
As it happens, I think the “Kamala gets an advantage from her slave-owning ancestor “ argument is utterly stupid and partisan whataboutism, but wouldnt call it racist per se.
OTOH, a recent comment about BLM riots as being “like animals” got called out very rightly. So some of this is opinion. 

Wendy P. 

I find it quite informative to learn who among my possible skydiving companions are racist, sexist, homophobes, anti-science, xenophobes, or just plain imbeciles whose motor skills happen to enable them to skydive.

[jakee 1,489]

4 hours ago, wmw999 said:

As it happens, I think the “Kamala gets an advantage from her slave-owning ancestor “ argument is utterly stupid and partisan whataboutism, but wouldnt call it racist per se.

Sure, but that's not the racist argument.