jloirsdaan 0 #51 May 31, 2006 Holy @#$@ Krisanne! Good job on saving your ass! Having just bought a new rig....I'll have to make sure I check the velcro regularly! I bet that was some scary shit! Jordan Go Fast, Dock Soft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #52 May 31, 2006 Dayum Girl...... glad you survived to post in this forum rather than the other one..If you get all repacked..... come join us for some dives... I think we may do a Memorial Dive for the ones who were not so lucky this weekend. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #53 May 31, 2006 Quote'I may change that now' So you're actually considering the possibility of still using the method that completely failed you once already? I don't consider changing emergency procedures to be something I will do on a knee-jerk reaction. I'd like to get a better sense of whether it was technique (pulling rather than peeling) or a strength issue before I make a final decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #54 May 31, 2006 QuoteDayum Girl...... glad you survived to post in this forum rather than the other one..If you get all repacked..... come join us for some dives... I think we may do a Memorial Dive for the ones who were not so lucky this weekend. Doubt I'll have everything back together by then but I will definitely be up to hang out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #55 May 31, 2006 QuoteQuote'I may change that now' So you're actually considering the possibility of still using the method that completely failed you once already? I don't consider changing emergency procedures to be something I will do on a knee-jerk reaction. I'd like to get a better sense of whether it was technique (pulling rather than peeling) or a strength issue before I make a final decision. Not a complete failure as NWFlyer is alive to talk about - through an extrodnary stroke of luck... More later, need to digest this string of opinions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutist 2 #56 May 31, 2006 QuoteQuote'I may change that now' So you're actually considering the possibility of still using the method that completely failed you once already? I don't consider changing emergency procedures to be something I will do on a knee-jerk reaction. Why did you change the frst time? It appears that you started out with good training: both hands on your cutaway pillow. What was the logic that led you to one hand on each handle? Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #57 May 31, 2006 See above. My two-handle EP training was part of my transition training (since I learned on SOS student gear). It wasn't anything that was drilled in any significant way by instructors as I was getting my A license at the time and moving out of their oversight, and I recall being told after my initial time in the practice harness "here's the benefits to both; you just need to pick a method and stick with it." Edited to fix link Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutist 2 #58 May 31, 2006 QuoteSee above. My two-handle EP training was part of my transition training (since I learned on SOS student gear). It wasn't anything that was drilled in any significant way by instructors as I was getting my A license at the time and moving out of their oversight, and I recall being told after my initial time in the practice harness "here's the benefits to both; you just need to pick a method and stick with it." Edited to fix link' I see. Thanks for the explanation. I'm glad you're safe and I do hope that next time you're able to perform your emergency procedure as planned. I'm surprised that an instructor presented the 1-hand option to you. If you're a weight lifter or a rock climber... then maybe it wouldn't be a probem. Even if you are such an athlete, there's no real advantage to using 1 hand. Disadvantage is that you can only pull with 1/2 the force. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #59 May 31, 2006 Quotethere's no real advantage to using 1 hand An advantage to using one hand per handle is not having to move your hands over to the reserve handle after you chop. Even if you don't lose visual contact with the reserve handle (a real possibility when the harness shifts and your body position does also) you are losing time. Two hands is faster, a real advantage if you have a low cutaway. No matter which method is chosen though, practice the one you prefer and get a canopy out in time to survive.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #60 May 31, 2006 QuoteEven if you are such an athlete, there's no real advantage to using 1 hand There are plenty of reasons. You already have the reserve handle so you will not waste time trying to grab it then pull it. I have had 7 mals and one hand on each handle has worked every time. There are drawbacks and advantages to each system. My GF uses two hands per handle and it works for her. I am not about to try and get her to change. But to claim that one is wrong is silly."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #61 May 31, 2006 I knew I could count on you Ron I was about to post the same thing. It isn't the procedure that is the problem it is the application. I have one hand on each handle. Easier to remain stable (my opinion). I Pull from the bottom out (Peel/Punch) for me that has always been the natural way to do it, but if it is not second nature to you and you can't get the hang of it USE TWO HANDS. Having a planet that is fast approching you is not the time to be finding out your application of the procedure you chose isn't gonna work I am glad you lived and learned. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #62 May 31, 2006 QuoteAn advantage to using one hand per handle is not having to move your hands over to the reserve handle after you chop. Even if you don't lose visual contact with the reserve handle (a real possibility when the harness shifts and your body position does also) you are losing time. Two hands is faster, a real advantage if you have a low cutaway. Asking because I don't know since I never bothered to check....Can you use 2 hands per handle with a wingsuit on?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #63 May 31, 2006 I can easily reach 2 hands per handle on my S-3 (can't vouch for other suits but don't believe it's a problem on any of them). It is certainly something to check on in case of a hard pull. In rereading my post I noticed that I may not have been real clear though. I use one hand per handle and advocate the practice. Hasn't failed me yet. I've never had a problem with stuck velcro on the cutaway handle either. When I grab the pillow I definitely mean business.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #64 May 31, 2006 Quote In rereading my post I noticed that I may not have been real clear though. Sorry, you were very clear, I just saw your avitar and thought about a WS and how it might effect things. I don't have much exp with a WS so I thought I would ask. Thanks."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutist 2 #65 June 1, 2006 Quote There are drawbacks and advantages to each system. My GF uses two hands per handle and it works for her. I am not about to try and get her to change. But to claim that one is wrong is silly. 3 males in this forum are telling me it's no problem for anyone to use 1 hand. I bet each of you can look down at your tricep and compare it to an average female's and realize that it's at least twice the bulk. Ron I'm sure you know that the max ripcord pull should be 22lbs + 4 lbs safety tie... = 26 lbs. The cutaway handle may require more force than that. It's not always a light pull. While 2 hands on each handle may require 1-2 seconds between pulls, that's very little time compared to someone trying over and over to pull the cuatway handle unsuccessfully. Quote My GF uses two hands per handle and it works for her. I am not about to try and get her to change. But to claim that one is wrong is silly. It's not silly for me to say that use of a 1-hand method, which requires strong arms, is something that should not be taught to those wiho don't have strong arms. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #66 June 1, 2006 I am delighted that you did not stop fighting for your life and with an extraordinary measure of luck on your side was able to not only survive the whole ordeal, but was able to walk away from it. First off, Congratulations to you, had you not fought for your life and given up at any point the outcome might have been disastrous. Skydiving accidents are usually a series of small mistakes that result in a catastrophe. This is not a critique on the method used for the execution of emergency procedures (1 or 2 hands per handle) and certainly not an attack towards you, but rather a look at the mistake(s): “On deployment, I had a brisker than normal opening, and found myself in a very fast turn to the right”. 2006 SIM, Section 4 Page 29 States: 1. For a parachute to be safe to land it must be: a. “There,” meaning deployment has occurred and something is overhead. b. “Square,” meaning that the parachute is inflated, rectangular (or slightly tapered), and regular in shape. c. “Steerable,” meaning that you can turn left and right and flare. 2. If the parachute fails any of the above tests, you must initiate reserve parachute procedures. Further down the page routine problems are listed, the one that stands out is: If the canopy has opened normally but turns on its own, be sure both brakes are released. a. “There” and “Square” – this is a visual assessment, which you made. “I looked at the canopy, trying to diagnose the problem” The mistake here was the whole bit about “trying to diagnose the problem” which you did not do effectively utilizing the guidelines found in the SIM. To share with you a small section of the student manual where I work, it states: Pre-mature brake release, turning and diving with no line twists: What if one of the toggles (brakes) releases and becomes un-stowed during deployment? First off, what would be happening to the flight characteristics of your canopy? It would be turning and diving because you have asymmetrical drag along of the trailing edge of your canopy. When you turn and dive, there is a pendulum effect; you may no longer have the canopy above your head. • Remain ALTITUDE aware by visually checking your altimeter (you can do this as you reach for your toggles or immediately after flaring). • Grasping both toggles, do a full flare; you have just corrected your problem. You should now be flying straight when at full flight. If you are not flying straight, remain ALTITUDE aware by visually checking your altimeter and establish your priorities based on your altitude. Ask yourself, can I safely land this canopy? What are my limits of controllability? • Perform a control check, if you can safely land, remain traffic aware; proceed to your holding area. • If you have doubt that you can safely land this canopy, release everything in your hands (toggles), cutaway & deploy reserve. • Remember, adhere to your hard deck recommendations, always remain altitude aware. So perhaps Lesson 1 could be: Additional and continued training in dealing with routine problems that might arise with the parachute inflation. In other words, had you been prepared for this situation as soon as you realized that you were “in a very fast turn to the right” you would have automatically grasped both toggles (Alt can be checked while doing this without loosing a beat) and flared the canopy - now the canopy should be flying straight if a pre-mature brake release was the issue. “As I have trained, I looked at the handles, got one hand on each, and I pulled the cutaway. Didn't budge”. 2006 SIM, Section 4 Page 29 States: Locate and grasp the cutaway handle. Unfortunately the SIM does not go into much detail other than to use the word “grasp” which is defined as: “to take or seize eagerly”. To share with you a small section of the student manual where I work, concerning the cutaway it states (for 2 hands): LOOK at your red cutaway pillow and FIRMLY grasp it with your right hand (your right hand is the “push” hand) wrapping your fingers firmly around the red cutaway pillow. Place your left hand over your right and firmly grasp the red cutaway pillow using both hands. Using both hands will decrease the chance of an out of sequence procedure and prevent loosing the cutaway pillow from your grasp in the event of a difficult extraction (hard pull). Do NOT let go of the cutaway pillow until you are released from BOTH sides or you run out of altitude to safely initiate a cutaway. Maintain an arched body position by pushing your hips forward. PEEL the Velcro from the bottom of the red cutaway pillow toward your sternum. The reason you peel from the bottom is because there are two yellow cables leaving the top of the pillow and going into the hard housings. At this point your eyes should be fixed on your silver reserve handle. Maintain an arched body position by pushing your hips forward. PUSH the red cutaway pillow vigorously, straight toward your groin until you are at full arm extension. Your tricep muscles should be flexed and your hands should be close to your body’s groin area. If both risers have not been released, hold the red cutaway pillow tightly with your right hand still at full arm extension and use your left hand to strip out the yellow cables. Be ADVISED: you may feel one side release and not the second, the RSL side cable may be longer of the two. PUSH the cutaway handle as if your life depends on it! You MUST fully release the main canopy before deploying your reserve to avoid an entanglement. After both risers are released simply let go of the red cutaway pillow (no need to throw it). The reason you PUSH straight down towards your groin is because the two yellow cables leaving the top of the pillow are going into the hard housings. Think of the mechanics involved. If you punch away from your body (perpendicular) you may create a bend in your yellow cable potentially resulting in a hard extraction. Maintain an arched body position by pushing your hips forward. So perhaps Lesson 2 could be: Additional and continued training in PROPER execution of emergency procedures. Be advised that if you practice on your own gear excessively, you can possibly create undue wear on the Velcro that seats your Cutaway Pillow. As far as the method used in the execution of EP’s there are pro’s and con’s to 1 handed and 2 handed methods. If you choose the 1 handed method it may be wise to incorporate into your training a “hard pull” scenario where you must bring your left hand over and use 2 hands on the cutaway pillow. At the DZ where I work we teach the 2 handed method with the underlying philosophy being: Using both hands will decrease the chance of an out of sequence procedure and prevent loosing the cutaway pillow from your grasp in the event of a difficult extraction (hard pull). “knowing how quickly I was burning through altitude, made the decision to pull my reserve handle in hopes of getting fabric over my head.” 2006 SIM, Section 5 Page 102 States: At some point during descent under a partial malfunction, it becomes too low for a safe cutaway and you must deploy the reserve without cutting away. It is at this point where the compounded mistakes start to increase in complexity and diminish your odds of survival. The idea is to not let situations escalate to this point. I am curious what your altitude was, if indeed it was time for such an act of desperation. Then to sum up the next portion of your experience: ”From my perspective, staring at a completely extracted reserve handle in my hand and seeing nothing white over my head, it didn't feel like a great decision. Witnesses tell me my reserve was trailing around behind me for quite some time. I then went back to the cutaway handle and started pulling cutaway cables manually by pulling directly on the exposed portion of the cables. At that point, the right riser released, and I could see the main trailing by the left riser. The reserve then popped up above my head, cleanly, but in massive line twists. I continued pulling on the cables while also trying to get the reserve out of the twists. The main eventually cleared (witnesses on the ground estimate this was at about 250-300 feet), and I finished kicking out of the line twists.” During this portion of your experience – KUDOS to you for fighting the good fight. Danger that could arise at this point could stem from the deluge of adrenaline that must have been flowing, and in all that excitement the actions you chose (or simply reacted to) make could have gone either way. This is where the extraordinary measure of luck was on your side. It is likely that I have not covered every aspect of my assessment of this situation but will stop now because this post is getting long - I am looking forward to learning more from the discussion this post might generate. Thank you so much for sharing this experience with us and humbly opening up the floor for discussion concerning this incident. I personally have learned a great deal as a result and quite probably others have as well. I cannot convey how deep my gratitude is that you did not get injured or corpsed-up...Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #67 June 1, 2006 Quote3 males in this forum are telling me it's no problem for anyone to use 1 hand. I bet each of you can look down at your tricep and compare it to an average female's and realize that it's at least twice the bulk The major problem is with people not pealing the velco first. That is a major failing of application of technique, not the technique itself. QuoteWhile 2 hands on each handle may require 1-2 seconds between pulls, that's very little time compared to someone trying over and over to pull the cuatway handle unsuccessfully. Being back into FREEFALL is better than under a mal for the same amount of time? I disagree. 2 seconds is about 100 feet in freefall, less than that under most mals where a canopy is out and spinning. QuoteIt's not silly for me to say that use of a 1-hand method, which requires strong arms, is something that should not be taught to those wiho don't have strong arms. It is silly to claim that one method is better than another flat out. And I bet most people who have hard pulls these days with all the gizmos have one due to not doing the technique correctly. Now if you wanted to debate that the two hand per handle method is better since some will screw up and not perform the technique correctly....That would be a worthy point. But properly done EP's should be able to be done with little regard to strength. Yes, the 90 pound person might have problems, but the average person has no problem if they do them correctly."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #68 June 1, 2006 Thanks for the detailed feedback; it sounds like the training manual your DZ uses is excellent in its completeness! It's a nice reminder to those of us who have been out of the "student" world for a bit to refresh ourselves on the SIM and other training materials regularly. I know I haven't in quite a while. To everyone ... I really want to say thanks for all the thoughtful debate on this thread. I had to think long and hard before I decided to post this; it is a very humbling thing to get onto an internet forum and admit that, at least in some ways, you fucked up. It's very humbling to realize and admit that luck played a big part in survival. It's very humbling to then sit back and wait for the armchair quarterbacks to pick apart every nuance of a skydive they weren't on. I expected to be biting my tongue more than I have. I expected to feel defensive at many points. To everyone's credit, I haven't felt that way. I've learned a lot, and I hope that this discussion has helped a few others learn. More than one person has PMed me, many of whom I have never met or even communicated with before, to say thank you for posting this. If nothing else, I hope I've got a few people remembering how fine the line is between getting it right and getting it wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #69 June 1, 2006 QuoteRon I'm sure you know that the max ripcord pull should be 22lbs + 4 lbs safety tie... = 26 lbs. The cutaway handle may require more force than that. It's not always a light pull. The 22 pounds includes the seal thread under TSO-C23d. 4.3.2.1 Primary Actuation Device/Ripcord, Human Factors Tests: The primary actuation device/ripcord shall be ground tested by a representative user group of no less than 6 male and 6 female subjects. They shall be able to operate the actuation device without difficulty. The ripcord, or equivalent, shall be sealed in accordance with FAR 65.133 for these tests. The cutaway requires the same 22 pounds but at a load twice the MOW.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutist 2 #70 June 1, 2006 QuoteQuoteRon I'm sure you know that the max ripcord pull should be 22lbs + 4 lbs safety tie... = 26 lbs. The cutaway handle may require more force than that. It's not always a light pull. The 22 pounds includes the seal thread under TSO-C23d. 4.3.2.1 Primary Actuation Device/Ripcord, Human Factors Tests: The primary actuation device/ripcord shall be ground tested by a representative user group of no less than 6 male and 6 female subjects. They shall be able to operate the actuation device without difficulty. The ripcord, or equivalent, shall be sealed in accordance with FAR 65.133 for these tests. The cutaway requires the same 22 pounds but at a load twice the MOW. That's different from what I was taught, and it's different from what is apparently stated in the Parachute Rigger Handbook on p5-42 (intructions for closing a reserve container): "WARNING: MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE PULL FORCE ON THE RESERVE RIPCORD IS 22 POUNDS (10 KG) 13. Once you are satisfied that the pull force is less than 22 pounds (10 kg), seal the ripcord and log the pack job." Going by the above text, the 22 lbs is to be measured before the pin is sealed. Edit: ok I missed the bold text first time though "The ripcord, or equivalent, shall be sealed in accordance with FAR 65.133 for these tests". There are different ways to interpret the 22lbs depending on which text you read A quote from PPM VolII, p296: "TSO tests are run without the safety tie thread so the 22 lb. maximum pull is easier to meet" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #71 June 1, 2006 QuoteGoing by the above text, the 22 lbs is to be measured before the pin is sealed. I do not see a specific statement in your quote about 22lbs limit including the seal thread breakage. A quote from PPM VolII, p296: PPM is not used as the standard for TSO, and nether is the New Riggers Handbook. Quote"TSO tests are run without the safety tie thread so the 22 lb. maximum pull is easier to meet" AS-8015B 1. SCOPE: This document defines the minimum performance standards for personnel parachute assemblies to be carried in aircraft or worn by passengers, crew, or parachutists for emergency use. This document covers three types of personnel carrying parachute assemblies and the operating limitations for each: The 22 pounds includes the seal thread under TSO-C23d. 4.3.2.1 Primary Actuation Device/Ripcord, Human Factors Tests: The primary actuation device/ripcord shall be ground tested by a representative user group of no less than 6 male and 6 female subjects. They shall be able to operate the actuation device without difficulty. The ripcord, or equivalent, shall be sealed in accordance with FAR 65.133 for these tests AS8015B is the standard to which all TSO-C23d testing is done. Attached is a copy of the Document.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parachutist 2 #72 June 1, 2006 Quote PPM is not used as the standard for TSO, and nether is the New Riggers Handbook. True, but I'm not getting a rig TSO'd when I pack it. The rig design already has a TSO. FAA does indicate that the PRH and PPM volI and II are reference material for parachute rigging. I'm interested in looking further into this tomorrow. Thanks for attaching the AS8015B Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #73 June 1, 2006 Quote “It's a nice reminder to those of us who have been out of the "student" world for a bit to refresh ourselves on the SIM and other training materials regularly. I know I haven't in quite a while.” Perhaps on of the most frustrating things I see in skydiving are skydivers who do not continue to train EP’s and Canopy Piloting after student status (like I did'nt). It is good to focus on the freefall portion of the experience but wise to stay on top of the important stuff, like surviving. It would be great if we could encourage others to train and review on a more regular basis. Quote”To everyone ... I really want to say thanks for all the thoughtful debate on this thread. I had to think long and hard before I decided to post this; it is a very humbling thing to get onto an internet forum and admit that, at least in some ways, you fucked up. It's very humbling to realize and admit that luck played a big part in survival. It's very humbling to then sit back and wait for the armchair quarterbacks to pick apart every nuance of a skydive they weren't on.” What is it that everyone says? “Been there, done that.” I would assume that for many skydivers luck has been on their side after a series of mistakes and scores have been on the receiving end of a talk at one time or another. Sometimes it is not easy when a very experienced instructor says “I have forgotten more about skydiving then you have even learned yet” just to shut up a know-it-all attitude, then I poured piping hot gravy all over myself (but he sure shut me up). Close calls had to humble me enough to listen and to be teachable, but fortunately I had mentors that cared enough to chew my ass often enough between the close calls. Sometimes it is difficult to be the “Safety Patrol” when thinking back on some of the stupid things I did, it is just that skydivers really seem to genuinely care about one another and the desire to keep one another safe is infectious. That is the coolest part about our sub-culture, good people all over the place. The difference between that and “Arm Chair Quarterbacking” is this – How many armchair quarterbacks played in the NFL, or for that matter past JV in high school? I would suspect probably not many but when receiving critique’s in the skydiving arena, sure you have to take it with a grain of salt but the advice usually comes from a source that has had some level of experience in the game and ego’s aside really just want to share their knowledge and experience with others so they don’t end up in the incident report. It’s like a big family of people who probably would not typically mix. Quote”I expected to be biting my tongue more than I have. I expected to feel defensive at many points. To everyone's credit, I haven't felt that way. I've learned a lot, and I hope that this discussion has helped a few others learn.” All the discussion certainly has helped me, it is just awesome that you decided to share, learn and grow and that we could all do it as a community. Thanks… Quote”More than one person has PMed me, many of whom I have never met or even communicated with before, to say thank you for posting this. If nothing else, I hope I've got a few people remembering how fine the line is between getting it right and getting it wrong.” You are totally correct; there is a fine line between disaster and grace.Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdrejhon 8 #74 June 1, 2006 I will likely keep using the 1-handed method; since it's drilled into me before every skydive -- I generally punch-up punch-down motion (punch-up as the the peel operation, and punch-down towards groin) In the last couple months, I did a test cutaway before a reserve repack, I did notice that the velcro was tougher to peel than expected (a half second longer than expected to peel), and the cutaway pull was easier and smoother than expected. I immediately thought I might end up needing to use both hands in less ideal situations. However, I realized if I ever experience a hard pull, I feel it is obvious (at least for myself, anyway) to automatically go to a two-handed pull within 1 second of an observed hard pull -- I repeatedly read about this and it's very instinctive of me to use both of my hands as a last resort if my regular drilled EP's result in a hard pull. Hopefully this will remain true in a high pressure situation - that I'd immediately go to two hands automatically in a hard pull situation with my regular EP motion. Has anyone who reminded themselves "if I ever have a hard pull, immediately do a 2-hand pull" forget about this during their EP's? (How about you) And those of you who noticed a hard pull, and succeeded in instinctively going to a 2-hand pull, what was the delay and altitude loss? The benefits of retraining to 2-hand pull versus the benefits of just sticking to what I am used to, versus adding an extra step to memorize "in case of hard pull, immediately switch to 2 hands" I have a Sabre 170 but do not have hard housings in my risers -- maybe I should now consider getting hard housings since I do get into linetwists occasionally (always kicked them in mere seconds). I know hard housings are much more essential for small parachutes and didn't think I really needed them for my 170. My risers are probably due for replacement later this year, and I'll go for hard housings - so I am ready when I am ready to downsize to a 150 (which would probably be next year or two... the 170 will suit me fine for another hundred or two jumps.) Comments? Any historical precedent -- can a 170 go into spinning linetwists so badly that I'll wish I had hard housings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #75 June 1, 2006 Mark, my risers didn't have hard housings. When I started jumping a wingsuit, I was told an interim step I could use instead of replacing/modifying the risers was to put a piece of 1/4" plastic tubing often used for hooking up a refrigerator ice maker. It is flexible enough and won't trap the cutaway cable if the risers get spun up. Don't know how well it works because my Sabre 170 has been well behaved.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites