We won two beautiful world wars

[BIGUN 1,424]

4 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

I think the proper saying is truth is the first casualty of war and the first casualty of battle is the plan.

We're both right. 

"In war, truth is the first casualty". Aeschylus (525 BC - 456 BC)

“NO BATTLE plan ever survives first contact with the enemy,” Helmuth von Moltke

I think it was later conjoined by Eisenhower. 

Aeschylus always stuck with me

[riggerrob 643]

Dear wolfriverjoe,

You made a good point about 20 million Russians dying during WW2.

Russians are still suffering echos from that miserable war. A Russian man born in 1920 had a 20 percent chance of surviving until the end of WW2. They lost a generation of young men. Which means that Russia never experienced the sort of "Baby Boom" that expanded populations in Canada, USA, etc.

20 years later, the unborn sons of those soldiers did not father any more babies during the 1960s. Twenty years later (mid-1980s) Russia suffered another slump in birth rates. .... another slump in birth rates during the early 2000s, followed by another slump during the 2020s. Four generations later, Russian birth rates are still lower than replacement, so Russian population is still decliniing. Couple this with white-skinned Russians' xenophobia and the country is doomed to declining population.

 

The Great Patriotic War (1939 - 1945) was not "good" from the Russian perspective.

[jakee 1,564]

1 minute ago, riggerrob said:

Dear wolfriverjoe,

You made a good point about 20 million Russians dying during WW2.

Russians are still suffering echos from that miserable war. A Russian man born in 1920 had a 20 percent chance of surviving until the end of WW2. They lost a generation of young men. Which means that Russia never experienced the sort of "Baby Boom" that expanded populations in Canada, USA, etc.

To be fair, a major factor in that were Stalinist policies unconnected to the war. Deaths from simple executions, in gulags, during forced relocations and due to famine caused by insane agricultural policies during Stalin's reign are estimated around the 20M mark also.

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

10 minutes ago, jakee said:

To be fair, a major factor in that were Stalinist policies unconnected to the war. Deaths from simple executions, in gulags, during forced relocations and due to famine caused by insane agricultural policies during Stalin's reign are estimated around the 20M mark also.

Hi jakee,

Stalin could not care less about people.  They were merely for worker-bees & cannon fodder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Jerry Baumchen

[kallend 2,108]

“No plan survives first contact with the enemy": A piece of military wisdom (translated) from the nineteenth-century Prussian military commander Helmuth van Moltke

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi jakee,

Stalin could not care less about people.  They were merely for worker-bees & cannon fodder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

Jerry Baumchen

and "The Ukrainian famine—known as the Holodomor, a combination of the Ukrainian words for “starvation” and “to inflict death”—by one estimate claimed the lives of 3.9 million people, about 13 percent of the population. And, unlike other famines in history caused by blight or drought, this was caused when a dictator wanted both to replace Ukraine’s small farms with state-run collectives and punish independence-minded Ukrainians who posed a threat to his totalitarian authority."

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

19 hours ago, BIGUN said:

The children of those who vote for it should have to fight in it. Then we'd know they were committed to the reason.

Interestingly, "The Roosevelts" was on PBS the other day, and I caught a few minutes of it.

While they were certainly 'elites', the number of family members who served in WW2 was impressive. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

2 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Interestingly, "The Roosevelts" was on PBS the other day, and I caught a few minutes of it.

While they were certainly 'elites', the number of family members who served in WW2 was impressive. 

Hi nJoe,

Yes, the did.  TR Jr went in on D-Day:

After several verbal requests to the division's Commanding General (CG), Major General Raymond "Tubby" Barton, to go ashore on D-Day with the Division were denied, Roosevelt sent a written petition:

‘The force and skill with which the first elements hit the beach and proceed may determine the ultimate success of the operation.... With troops engaged for the first time, the behavior pattern of all is apt to be set by those first engagements. [It is] considered that accurate information of the existing situation should be available for each succeeding element as it lands. You should have when you get to shore an overall picture in which you can place confidence. I believe I can contribute materially on all of the above by going in with the assault companies. Furthermore I personally know both officers and men of these advance units and believe that it will steady them to know that I am with them.^’

Barton approved Roosevelt's written request with much misgiving, stating that he did not expect Roosevelt to return alive.

He died of a heart attack on 12 Jul 44 in France.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[murps2000 86]

https://books.google.com/books/about/With_the_Old_Breed_at_Peleliu_and_Okinaw.html?id=84CJDQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button
 

An insightful book on a beautiful war. One chapter that deals with Okinawa is titled “Of Mud and Maggots”

[BIGUN 1,424]

5 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

I wanted to make a comment on the records restoration effort that's been going on since the 1973 St Louis military records fire. That fire burned for days. When the military says they have "70% records restored," they don't mean your entire military record. Much of your main record back in those days was housed in a single location...St. Louis, of course. What they mean is that using company records and other things, they were able to establish that you WERE in the military and a few basic facts but not a whole lot else. Their main goal was to try and make sure veterans could at least prove their branch and dates of service so they could qualify for Veterans' Benefits. 

As far as restoring your entire military record, if your record was destroyed in the fire, they will never get that back. It's too bad. 

 Not only do they have 70% of the records restored - If you came to me and we found out that your records had been destroyed in the fire; we could re-create ~70-80% of your individual service record in less than a year from nothing.  

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

5 hours ago, BIGUN said:

 Not only do they have 70% of the records restored - If you came to me and we found out that your records had been destroyed in the fire; we could re-create ~70-80% of your individual service record in less than a year from nothing.  

Hi Keith,

I first learned about that fire when working as a federal civilian employee.  To qualify for something ( I think Soc Sec ) I needed my military records.  They were destroyed in that fire.  I have every order ever written about me ( including the original orders sending to Basic Training ).  The gov't would not accept my copies of my orders.  They eventually had us sign some document ( it was a long time ago ) and we got our credit.

I never could understand why they would not accept my copies of my orders.  But then again, the gov't. really does not trust anyone.

Jerry Baumchen

Edited July 25, 2020 by JerryBaumchen

[BIGUN 1,424]

19 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

The gov't would not accept my copies of my orders.  They eventually had us sign some document ( it was a long time ago ) and we got our credit.

Morning, Jerry. 

I was in the military in the 70s - 90s, so I can't speak to the absolute "why" they wouldn't accept copies. My thoughts would be that "Xerox" copies were probably the intel security anti-Christ that thumb drives are today, so a blanket policy of "don't accept" may have been the mantra of the day. 

Today, you can bring in copies of your service record and most of the process time (a year) is because there is a validation process. You went to Airborne school; you have your certificate of completion and orders for a "P" Identifier on your MOS. You'd think both those records are in the same place, but the're not and it depends on MOS. There is a record of each class at Airborne school, but the "P" originated elsewhere.  Assume twenty pieces of documents you bring in equals forty different searches by personnel. Long story short. It's doable, but takes time. 

As to the fire;  The VA brought in Military Intelligence, teams of forensics, mold remediation teams, etc. It took them awhile to develop a process between teams, but today if there's something still missing - it is re-created on an individual case basis. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by BIGUN
spelelingly

[kallend 2,108]

3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Morning, Jerry. 

I was in the military in the 70s - 90s, so I can't speak to the absolute "why" they wouldn't accept copies. My thoughts would be that "Xerox" copies were probably the intel security anti-Christ that thumb drives are today, so a blanket policy of "don't accept" may have been the mantra of the day. 

Today, you can bring in copies of your service record and most of the process time (a year) is because there is a validation process. You went to Airborne school; you have your certificate of completion and orders for a "P" Identifier on your MOS. You'd think both those records are in the same place, but the're not and it depends on MOS. There is a record of each class at Airborne school, but the "P" originated elsewhere.  Assume twenty pieces of documents you bring in equals forty different searches by personnel. Long story short. It's doable, but takes time. 

As to the fire;  The VA brought in Military Intelligence, teams of forensics, mold remediation teams, etc. It took them awhile to develop a process between teams, but today if there's something still missing - it is re-created on an individual case basis. 

My wife would like to know why her father was awarded the Bronze Star.  Where would you suggest she start?

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

4 hours ago, BIGUN said:

As to the fire; 

Hi Keith,

Thanks for the info.  That is one thing I like about SC, I learn a lot here that I would not otherwise.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

3 minutes ago, RobertMBlevins said:

A majority of the time, they are only able to establish some very basic facts, but enough so you can qualify for Vets' benefits. 

Hi Robert,

My memory is not perfect, but I think they did something like what you say.  I have a memory of signing some document, that had to be notarized, which was a statement as to when I enlisted & when I was separated.  After a few months, I got the credit for my time in the service.

Jerry Baumchen

[BIGUN 1,424]

7 hours ago, RobertMBlevins said:

They cannot re-create many of the records, although you have to give it to them for their ongoing effort. Between 16-18 million total records of individual military personnel were destroyed in the fire, and about 6 and a half million others were saved. Out of the destroyed records, many were a total loss. The remainder...well, they keep trying to recreate from what is left. 

A majority of the time, they are only able to establish some very basic facts, but enough so you can qualify for Vets' benefits. 

The only part of this whole quote that is accurate is "Between 16-18 million total records of individual military personnel were destroyed in the fire, and about 6 and a half million others were saved." The rest is inaccurate.   

Edited July 27, 2020 by BIGUN

[BIGUN 1,424]

19 hours ago, kallend said:

My wife would like to know why her father was awarded the Bronze Star.  Where would you suggest she start?

PM sent.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

On 7/20/2020 at 7:10 PM, JoeWeber said:

Beautiful world wars. I think my dad would disagree. He was the tail gunner in this B-24. 

My grandfather would most certainly disagree. He was a pilot on those B-24s. Trained in Jackson, MS and flew missions out of Australia.

Correction: He did not fly B-24s, he flew B-25s. The sentiment remains.

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by SkyDekker
Correction

[kallend 2,108]

Dan Coates is a former GOP senator and Trump's DNI from 2017 to 2019.

Very thoughtful article on the potential Cold War with China, which without once mentioning Trump is clearly critical of his knee-jerk approach.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/07/28/new-cold-war-between-us-china-is-dangerous-myth/

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

5 hours ago, kallend said:

 potential Cold War with China

Hi John,

There has been a fair amount of posting on here about how Putin is controlling Trump and hoping that the US will become a lesser power; all to the advantage to Russia.

I think that should the US become less powerful, Russia would regret it as China would become the most dominant nation; and to Russia's detriment.

Jerry Baumchen

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

10 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi John,

There has been a fair amount of posting on here about how Putin is controlling Trump and hoping that the US will become a lesser power; all to the advantage to Russia.

I think that should the US become less powerful, Russia would regret it as China would become the most dominant nation; and to Russia's detriment.

Jerry Baumchen

True, but if Putin can manipulate Trump into starting a trade war with China (which has largely happened already), then Russia can use that to their advantage.

The fact that Putin's been unable to get Trump to remove the sanctions (not for lack of trying) has been one of the things holding Russia back.

It would be nice to see the next administration level some real sanctions on Russia for their behaviors, particularly the disinformation about corona.

[JerryBaumchen 1,445]

7 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

It would be nice to see the next administration level some real sanctions on Russia for their behaviors, particularly the disinformation about corona.

Hi Joe,

Well, we could always bring Hillary back as Sec of State.

Jerry Baumchen

[Phil1111 1,149]

17 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe,

Well, we could always bring Hillary back as Sec of State.

Jerry Baumchen

Good one. Somehow I think she would have daily briefings of Putin's bowel movements as a part of her studies.

[turtlespeed 226]

31 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Good one. Somehow I think she would have daily briefings of Putin's bowel movements as a part of her studies.

That's a really shitty thing to focus on.

Edited August 3, 2020 by turtlespeed

[riggerrob 643]

Russia would suffer in any trade war involving Russia, China and the USA, because Russia has the smallest population and their population is in decline. One of the causes of Russian low birth rates is ripple effects from all the millions of Russians who died during the Great Patriotic War.