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BIGUN 1,317
Brainstorming is good. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the BMI. A lot of skydivers would flunk it, myself included and just about every body builder on the planet. A simple statement on the website that, "Height and weight must be proportionate." And another that states, "Maximum weight loadings for skydiving equipment are defined by the gear manufacturers" should suffice.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.
Erroll 80
QuoteAll his extra pounds were around her waist.
Suggestions?
Take them one at a time?
QuoteBrainstorming is good. Personally, I'm not a big fan of the BMI. A lot of skydivers would flunk it, myself included and just about every body builder on the planet. A simple statement on the website that, "Height and weight must be proportionate." And another that states, "Maximum weight loadings for skydiving equipment are defined by the gear manufacturers" should suffice.
I'm with you on this one. I'm 6'3" and 250lbs. This technically makes me too heavy to skydive and overweight via BMI reading.
The only way I can lose weight is to shed muscle mass. There is not enough fat on me to get below 215lbs for AFF school alone.
So I think that BMI is a poor indicator of general fitness.
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Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh.
I definately agree. How would we get around that?
2 years ago when I did my tandem, I was 232 lbs and I'm 6'5. The limit was 210 and my instructor still took me because he said I was in shape and my weight is muscle. (as muscle weighs more than fat)
We had a flawless skydive...
Even with AFF, I wingload the shit out of my canopy. I've gotten bigger as I work out and weigh 240 now.
So by BMI standards, mine is like 27.5, which is "overweight" But if you look at me, you'd never guess I weigh 240.
So, obviously each situation would have to be looked at differently. As some people's BMI's don't take into account how often they work out, how tall they are and stuff like that.
2 years ago when I did my tandem, I was 232 lbs and I'm 6'5. The limit was 210 and my instructor still took me because he said I was in shape and my weight is muscle. (as muscle weighs more than fat)
We had a flawless skydive...
Even with AFF, I wingload the shit out of my canopy. I've gotten bigger as I work out and weigh 240 now.
So by BMI standards, mine is like 27.5, which is "overweight" But if you look at me, you'd never guess I weigh 240.
So, obviously each situation would have to be looked at differently. As some people's BMI's don't take into account how often they work out, how tall they are and stuff like that.
Puttin' some stank on it.
----Hellfish #707----
----Hellfish #707----
ChrisL 2
Quote
So I think that BMI is a poor indicator of general fitness.
Very poor measure. My BMI is 32 and I'm not even remotely fat.
BMI says that I am obese. Not just overweight, but actually obese
Howabout tandem operations and instructors just exercize judgement and take it on a case by case basis?
Political correctness should never be any kind of consideration when it involves the possible loss of life. If they are too fat, they stay on the ground.
For myself, I'd rather be alive with a bruised ego than dead.
__
My mighty steed
My mighty steed
Well, if you guys had read my post you would see that I wasn't proposing to use the BMI's guidelines of obese or overweight. I was proposing another number.. perhaps 36 or something as the restriction.
I realize that those guidelines would prevent many people who are actually at a healthy weight from skydiving.
However, I seriously doubt that any of you people have a BMI of 36-- this is severely obese. Go to the BMI calculator that I provided a link for and calculate yours. None of you are 36, I assure you. But however, the woman who died was around a 42. This is the sort of body type that shouldn't fit into tandem harnesses. But on someone who is short, they could be within weight limits.
If a DZ published it's policies on it's website then I think many people who were seriously obese would weed themselves out. I don't think they would want to push it at the DZ.
I also don't think that dismissing an idea because "busy DZ's won't follow it" is appropriate. Personally, I think that busy DZ's do have safety in mind. Perhaps the best decisions aren't always made, but a simple change in their policy like the addition of a BMI restriction would atleast steer them in the right direction.
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
I realize that those guidelines would prevent many people who are actually at a healthy weight from skydiving.
However, I seriously doubt that any of you people have a BMI of 36-- this is severely obese. Go to the BMI calculator that I provided a link for and calculate yours. None of you are 36, I assure you. But however, the woman who died was around a 42. This is the sort of body type that shouldn't fit into tandem harnesses. But on someone who is short, they could be within weight limits.
If a DZ published it's policies on it's website then I think many people who were seriously obese would weed themselves out. I don't think they would want to push it at the DZ.
I also don't think that dismissing an idea because "busy DZ's won't follow it" is appropriate. Personally, I think that busy DZ's do have safety in mind. Perhaps the best decisions aren't always made, but a simple change in their policy like the addition of a BMI restriction would atleast steer them in the right direction.
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
Just worked out that I would have to weight 336lbs (24stone) to have the same BMI as that lady.
Now that is lardy.
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Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh.
Now that is lardy.
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Two of the three voices in my head agree with you. It might actually be unanimous but voice three only speaks Welsh.
Ron 10
QuoteVery poor measure. My BMI is 32 and I'm not even remotely fat.
You are also a meat head
Lifters, get over the BMI bit for a second. It works for MOST of the population of the planet....You know those scrawny folks you kick sand at on the beach.
Anyone with half a brain can tell if a person is in shape. They could then use the BMI as a REASON to say no.
You have to have a reason to say no in todays climate. You just can't say no to fatty. You have to be able to reference why. Just saying "you look fat" will get you slapped and sued.
So if I have a fatty show up, I can say, "Sorry, our rules do not allow me to take anyone over an "X" BMI for saftey reasons." And I can cite the accident now being beat to death in the other forum.
Now I have to try and explain it in a way that will not get me slapped or sued.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334
That is basically what I was thinking. It is not too difficult to look at someone and size up whether they should really be jumping or not.
But telling them, "I'm sorry, you're too short for your body weight." Well.. obviously that could piss off some people.
But if there was a stated policy on BMI restriction then hopefully some people would weed themselves out, and if this didn't happen, then there would be a clear-cut rule that could be brought to their attention.
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
But telling them, "I'm sorry, you're too short for your body weight." Well.. obviously that could piss off some people.
But if there was a stated policy on BMI restriction then hopefully some people would weed themselves out, and if this didn't happen, then there would be a clear-cut rule that could be brought to their attention.
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
Ron, this may be the first time that you've agreed with me!
This makes me happy.
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
This makes me happy.
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
Karen I agree with that.
If you don't want to piss people off, DZ's could always adopt the same policy that amusement parks have.
When I worked at Cedar Point, along with any park, there is always a demo seat at the beginning of the line that you can try out. Do people use it? No....so then they get mad when they waited 3 hours to get on Millenium Force and as manager I had to politely tell them that "our restraints are unable to accomodate you, I'm sorry."
Obviously we can't set out a tandem harness and be like "HEY TRY IT ON!!"
but maybe if there are signs or its stated on the waiver beforehand, that may give people a heads up or something? or maybe deter people who may question their size.
I know there are signs about size restrictions, but people only see "you have to be XXX weight" they don't actually see the harness, so they just assume....
Just tossin it out there....if you dont like, just toss it back....
If you don't want to piss people off, DZ's could always adopt the same policy that amusement parks have.
When I worked at Cedar Point, along with any park, there is always a demo seat at the beginning of the line that you can try out. Do people use it? No....so then they get mad when they waited 3 hours to get on Millenium Force and as manager I had to politely tell them that "our restraints are unable to accomodate you, I'm sorry."
Obviously we can't set out a tandem harness and be like "HEY TRY IT ON!!"
but maybe if there are signs or its stated on the waiver beforehand, that may give people a heads up or something? or maybe deter people who may question their size.
I know there are signs about size restrictions, but people only see "you have to be XXX weight" they don't actually see the harness, so they just assume....
Just tossin it out there....if you dont like, just toss it back....
Puttin' some stank on it.
----Hellfish #707----
----Hellfish #707----
fcajump 164
As a former TI, and one who VERY much wants a good answer for this, I must agree with those that discount the BMI...
My wife and I are both 5'9".
She has a slender build and we both agree that she really needs to loose weight and get in shape... She weighs 165... BMI: 24.4 - "normal"
I have a very large frame, however I do NOT work out. While I have lost some weight this year, I jumped for several years without issue at 240... BMI: 35.4 - "obese" (while I would still like to loose some weight, it is generally considered that I would be pushing unhealthy if I got below about 190... still a BMI of "overweight")
So, at least in my mind, just with my wife and I as examples, I see the BMI as somewhat useless.
BUT!! This does not mean there isn't an answer... and the non-TI's that work at manifest, and our promotional material (web sites, etc) needs some guidelines to tell people that the couch potato needs to stay home and watch the video.
I know that my greatest fear as a TI and rigger is to be even remotely responsible for someone else's bad day.
Best hopes to all... keep brain-storming until we have no more issues... we can always do better!!
Jim
My wife and I are both 5'9".
She has a slender build and we both agree that she really needs to loose weight and get in shape... She weighs 165... BMI: 24.4 - "normal"
I have a very large frame, however I do NOT work out. While I have lost some weight this year, I jumped for several years without issue at 240... BMI: 35.4 - "obese" (while I would still like to loose some weight, it is generally considered that I would be pushing unhealthy if I got below about 190... still a BMI of "overweight")
So, at least in my mind, just with my wife and I as examples, I see the BMI as somewhat useless.
BUT!! This does not mean there isn't an answer... and the non-TI's that work at manifest, and our promotional material (web sites, etc) needs some guidelines to tell people that the couch potato needs to stay home and watch the video.
I know that my greatest fear as a TI and rigger is to be even remotely responsible for someone else's bad day.
Best hopes to all... keep brain-storming until we have no more issues... we can always do better!!
Jim
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...
But as you can see from previous posts I wasn't proposing that we use the BMI guideline of "obese" as a restriction for tandem passengers.
I was suggesting that we use a number on the BMI scale.. of perhaps 36 or 38 as a cutoff point. So you would still be within the acceptable range.. however someone at your weight might exceed weight restrictions anyways.
Please read my post more carefully if you are going to attempt to discount it.
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
I was suggesting that we use a number on the BMI scale.. of perhaps 36 or 38 as a cutoff point. So you would still be within the acceptable range.. however someone at your weight might exceed weight restrictions anyways.
Please read my post more carefully if you are going to attempt to discount it.
"Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham
Broke 0
THe height and weight chart is a very dirty method to use for determining someones fitness level. I am sure that with all my biking I have been doing recently I have been burning off fat like no tommorow, however I am still around 205 which according to the height and weight charts says I am overweight. However look at my legs they have gotten huge over the past couple of months. I need to work out my arms more so I am not dis proportinate.
The truest way to guage is to break out the fat calipers, however I don't think that people at a DZ would be particular fond of this idea.
Maybe there should be a waist/gut size requirement. Alhough I am conflicted about discriminating people based on how wide they are. I am sure while there is no way to collect the data that there ave been quite a few people who haven been overweight and have done tandems just fine. We just have to figure out why this one was different.
Could it be the tandem master in particular was afraid to tighten the straps down too much. Sometimes fat people need to be tightened down a lot. You would be amazed how much fat can be smushed against the rails on a steatcher. Just because you may think someone's straps are tight enough, dosen't mean that they are. Especially in the Morbidly Obese population. Fat moves when extreame force is applied. Tighten those fuckers down even if they complain that it is too tight. as long as they have circulation they will be good to go.
you can walk away with hurt feelings, but you can't walk away when you are a stain.
The truest way to guage is to break out the fat calipers, however I don't think that people at a DZ would be particular fond of this idea.
Maybe there should be a waist/gut size requirement. Alhough I am conflicted about discriminating people based on how wide they are. I am sure while there is no way to collect the data that there ave been quite a few people who haven been overweight and have done tandems just fine. We just have to figure out why this one was different.
Could it be the tandem master in particular was afraid to tighten the straps down too much. Sometimes fat people need to be tightened down a lot. You would be amazed how much fat can be smushed against the rails on a steatcher. Just because you may think someone's straps are tight enough, dosen't mean that they are. Especially in the Morbidly Obese population. Fat moves when extreame force is applied. Tighten those fuckers down even if they complain that it is too tight. as long as they have circulation they will be good to go.
you can walk away with hurt feelings, but you can't walk away when you are a stain.
Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192
fcajump 164
QuoteBut as you can see from previous posts I wasn't proposing that we use the BMI guideline of "obese" as a restriction for tandem passengers.
I was suggesting that we use a number on the BMI scale.. of perhaps 36 or 38 as a cutoff point. So you would still be within the acceptable range.. however someone at your weight might exceed weight restrictions anyways.
Please read my post more carefully if you are going to attempt to discount it.
Did read it carefully. And I very much agree that we need a method... But the BMI would put me as questionable, when I am fit to jump (and was this weight as a TI), and my wife would be "fine" and yet is not fit to jump...
The problem with general guidelines is that once given to the public (or non-instructing manifest personnel) is that people take them as absolutes. Fit people turned away, unfit people still in line to go...
Mind you, you've presented an idea to work with... where-as, as much as I have contrary examples, I have no specific idea other than 100% reliance upon the judgement of the TI. While this is great, it is heavily influenced by inappropriate factors (money, management's money, out-of-shape friends/family, etc...).
I commend you on your suggestion... just concerned about how I think it would be (literally) implemented.
You've also done one other very good thing here... you've gotten the discussion going. Maybe someone here has better ideas or refinements?
Thanks Karenmeal!
Blue skies and soft landings,
Jim
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...
AFFI 0
Quote
Alhough I am conflicted about discriminating people based on how wide they are.
Would it be considered "discrimination"? I mean do they let elephants bungee jump? Of course not, the bungee would break.
I don't see anything wrong with telling people at 5'9" 240 (or anyone over the 200/220 whatever threshold the DZ uses) that they'll need to be evaluated individually before they can manifest. (and that would mean no non refundable deposits)
You can argue that you were more fit than your wife at 165, but 1) probably not true, and 2) with relation to the harness, she was probably a better fit.
You can argue that you were more fit than your wife at 165, but 1) probably not true, and 2) with relation to the harness, she was probably a better fit.
Broke 0
QuoteWould it be considered "discrimination"? I mean do they let elephants bungee jump? Of course not, the bungee would break.
Yeah but they will let elephants skydive
Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192
Write down in your 'business terms and conditions' that your tandemstaff can refuse to take passengers without being obliged to give a reason or explanation. Nobody is going to challenge that beforehand.
Next comes the hardest part for the always money hungry like you and me: Completely refund any (down)payments when you decide to bring the paragraph in effect.
(Yes, you probably could charge an adminstrators fee; don't! Of course a paragraph where you are not responsible for any "result damage" like aditional travelling expenses is a smart plan too...)
You are not discriminating the obese, you are excersising your right to decide who you are going to jump with and who not...
All the rest ('reasonably fit, not under the influence, no history of certain diseases etcetera...') can be in the small prints on the DZ's website - where a warning of a too high BMI also could be placed.
I should have become a lawyer...
And by the way Rob, "Discouraging"?
What's wrong with: "I'm sorry but we are not going to jump with you"?
"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...
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