warning- student Cypres incident

[miss3sixty 0]

Back again,

Yesterday my best friend gave himself a cypres fire under canopy. (210 student canopy/student cypres2 70 jumps )

He did a few spirals whilst checking height, came out of the spirals at what he thought was just above 1000ft and began his square landing pattern

His cypres then fired giving him a bi-plane, which then became a down plane which he managed to land safely (details are available)

WHATS MY POINT?

When a graduated student is still jumping student gear, they need to be fully informed about the differences between the student and expert cypres, especially if they are starting to experiment with the limits and performance of the canopy.

Its simply not just a case of telling them that its set at 1000ft rather than 750ft.

Most of us know the student cypress will activate when the rate of descent exceeds faster than 29mph rather than 78mph
BUT
The activation altitude is split. IF rate of descent is equal to that of freefall, the opening altitude is at 750ft like the usual Cypres.
However, if the rate of descent is lower than that of freefall but still above the limit of 29 mph (e.g. with partially opened canopy), then Student Cypres activates when the altitude decreases below 1000 ft.

My friend could have done with knowing this, as he would have stopped spiralling much higher.

I think people sometimes try not to 'baffle' students and newbies with too much info, but some things must not be overlooked.

Miss3sixty

Miss3sixty

Skydiving- it has its ups and downs

[jurgencamps 0]

You have a good point, but spiraling at 1000 ft is not a good thing neither.

Jurgen

[AggieDave 6]

Huh. We make our students read the Cypres manual. Then we quiz them over the operation of the unit and some of the technical details (firing speed/height, etc).

On the flip side, why should a student be in a situation where they're doing spirals at and below 1000ft? Between 2000ft and 1000ft jumpers should be watching other jumpers and working to build seperation between other jumpers under canopy so everyone doesn't enter the patter at the same time and altitude.

Hopefully some retraining will be involved about safe Cypres operation AND safe canopy piloting.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[riggerrob 643]

Information about equipment should be given in small doses.
For example, I avoid mentioning AADs during my first jump course and don't tell them how to turn on an AAD until their first freefall (PFF) jump.
As for spiralling near 1,000 feet ... that is "just as wrong as two boys kissing!"
(Apologies to gay friends.)
We tell students to play with their canopies above 2,000 feet. While working on those exercises, they should keep an eye on the target and gradually fly towards the upwind side of the landing field. Between 2,000 and 1,000 feet, they should be heading for the "designated point"/"set up point"/whatever you call it.
Below 1,000 feet, they should fly boring, predictable landing pattern to minimize the risk of collisions with other canopies.

[tigra 0]

How did he land a downplane "safely"? I'm actually more curious about that than what caused the cypres to fire. Are you sure it wasn't the other way around? Went from a down plane into a landable bi-plane? I've seen more than one person land a down plane for whatever reason, and none of them walked away. They all sustained pretty significant injuries.

[tombuch 0]

Some good points overall in this thread about students and the Cypres.

In this case the person using the Cypres had 70 jumps and was just borrowing a student rig. The original post suggested that folks at that level probably don't think a whole lot about the specifics of a STUDENT cypres because they generally use an expert Cypres that you can spin below 1,000 feet (traffic allowing).

The point in the original post was a good one...when student gear is used by experienced jumpers, the staff should take a few minutes to review the things that make it special, different, or unique.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[JohnMitchell 16]

Makes a nice selling point for those AAD's that can be reset for different modes.

Thanks for the report on this incident. I'll watch for this situation in the future.

[miss3sixty 0]

replying to everyone really...
thanks for sharing your expertise on this matter.

Its good that some instructors make students read and understand the cypress manual, especially if these individuals are going to continue to jump student gear till they get their own rig.

There is also a wing-loading issue. For example when hiring gear at our DZ, we have nothing in between a 170 and the student 210, and bigger heavier guys, unless really experienced, are going to be given the student 210.

As newbies, we are of course, encouraged to spiral higher, but if there’s no traffic around, providing we have finished spinning and are in place at our 1000ft point to begin our landing square, we believed that was considered ok

There are also times when we do it to lose height faster to avoid being too close in the sky to the person jumping after us, although this of course should be considered and executed earlier.

Spiralling when approaching 1000ft is obviously not considered a good idea.
However, I think the ‘severity’ of spiralling also needs to be considered.
A couple of turns with the toggle held at chest level is a different ball game to 5 + spirals with the toggle held at hip level.

But what do I know- Im only on 41 jumps

Tombuch, can I buy a copy of your book !

Miss3sixty

Skydiving- it has its ups and downs

[Samurai136 0]

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There are also times when we do it to lose height faster to avoid being too close in the sky to the person jumping after us, although this of course should be considered and executed earlier.

Spiraling down for traffic issues is completely unnecessary. Who says that first out should land first? It sounds like your friend has mastered that aspect of canopy flight and should practice more "slow flight" modes. Flying in half breaks, maximizing glide with riser inputs, and flat turns are far more important skills than toggle whipping spirals.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[AggieDave 6]

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Spiraling down for traffic issues is completely unnecessary.

Typically yes. Infact, many of the people that "spiral down to clear traffic" cause more issues then if they would have gone into half breaks and created their own own seperation.

How many times has someone with even a moderate canopy been stuck behind someone who was spiraling in the patter or right before the pattern then their canopy choice and wingloading (which isn't a bad thing) leaves them floating in a large pattern? Yes they are the low jumper and yes they have the right away, so other jumpers do what they can to stay away from the jumper and leave the right away, BUT that one jumper has stacked up multipul jumpers in the pattern. All of whom are having to fly in brakes to keep from running the other jumper over.

Low man has right away, but a jumper should have enough awareness to recognize canopies and jumpers. When I open I identify what jumpers will fly more agressively then I do and what jumpers are on faster/higher wingloading canopies then I have. I go into brakes and let them pass me as I get back to the holding area to start my landing pattern. I also identify what jumpers are less agressive then I am and flying lower wingloadings on less agressive wings. I try to go before them if possible. If that's not possible I'll sit in brakes longer and let the pattern clear.

Too many people worry simply about low man right away instead of realizing the overall picture of jumpers in the sky. Then those jumpers try to become swoopers without having that overall picture of whats going on in the air and the landing pattern. That's how you end up letting other jumpers collide with you. (yeah, they shouldn't have hit you, but if you're in your car at an intersection and the light turns green, do you go even though there's an 18-wheeler about the blow the red light? You have the right away, it won't be your fault, right? You'll still be just as dead).

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Dokeman 0]

I agree, I did the exact same thing when I was a student. I didn't know they would fire with a good canopy.

[billvon 3,070]

>Flying in half breaks, maximizing glide with riser inputs, and flat turns
>are far more important skills than toggle whipping spirals.

Well, all those things have their place in a skydiver's skill set when it comes to traffic separation. The first three things are useful for staying up longer, getting towards the 'top' of a pack of parachutes flying back. Front risers and toggle turns are a way to get to the bottom, which can also be useful depending on traffic.

[damion75 0]

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Low man has right away, but a jumper should have enough awareness to recognize canopies and jumpers. When I open I identify what jumpers will fly more agressively then I do and what jumpers are on faster/higher wingloading canopies then I have. I go into brakes and let them pass me as I get back to the holding area to start my landing pattern. I also identify what jumpers are less agressive then I am and flying lower wingloadings on less agressive wings. I try to go before them if possible. If that's not possible I'll sit in brakes longer and let the pattern clear.

Agreed. Unfortunately so much of the intelligent theory that has been worked out for this sport is ignored in practice. I think 95% of jumpers (there are always the DGITs out there) would agree that this is definitely the way forward. Sadly only about 30% of them would actually do this...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[Zoter 0]

Hmmm.....I think there is something to be said here as well as having areas 'designated' as experinced and low experinced landing areas on the same landing area.

Not because of students/low timers 'holding' up the pattern...

To be honest ...from my experience its always been the opposite....hot dogs getting down quickly because they dont want to 'wait' in the pattern ahead of them....causing those with less experince to get a little twitched and start to do things on their pattern/final...that cause issues with those behind

Had a couple of 'near'calls in that respect......and hand on heart can say they were not 'my fault'......but caused me to take action that on a normal pattern I would rather not have taken....

Irresepective of blame...the potential for damage is the same..

[AggieDave 6]

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Not because of students/low timers 'holding' up the pattern.

I didn't specifically state Student/low timers. I know I've been completely hosed by experienced jumpers. Infact, one of the scariest weekends I spent jumping was a boogie with folks that had enough experience to know better. It was so bad under canopy that I quit jumping at the boogie. I only did 3 jumps. It wasn't 30 jump jumpers that were causing serious problems.

It was the jumpers with a 100-300 ish jumps that did things like open, start spiralling, fly closer to the landing area then start spiralling, etc. All of this around the 800ft to 2000ft.

Quote

Hmmm.....I think there is something to be said here as well as having areas 'designated' as experinced and low experinced landing areas on the same landing area.

Not all DZs have that option. The DZ used in my example had a landing area so small that they actually shut that landing area down for the boogie and had talked a school across the street into letting them use a small soccer field across the street.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Digitalmafia 0]

I thought that when the cypres fired the main was auto cut away? Was this a malfunction-or do I have my facts wrong?

[hookitt 1]

You have that wrong.

A CYPRES fire only cuts the reserve closing loop to allow the reserve pilot chute to launch.

Next time at the dropzone, ask your instructor to show you exactly how a rig functions. Ask the local parachute rigger if you can watch him pack a reserve. It will all make sense afterwards.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[nate_1979 9]

Still can't say that I understand why anyone needs a student cypress... I know of DZs that use expert cypress in all rigs, including student rigs.. Makes sense to me, one less thing you have to worry about, would have eliminated this whole incident.. You either need a cypress to save your ass or you dont, whether you are a student or licensed...

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[freeflygirlz 0]

Nate,
the student cypres is designed to provide a higher level of safety for students: it is meant to fire even if the student has a partly (slower) malfunction (line over, steamer..). therefore the activation speed is much lower as for expert jumpers.
The slightly higher opening altitude gives the student a bit more time to deal with the situation before landing.
Expert jumpers would not accept an aad, which fires to an partly open main / at aggressive canopy moves. Its designed to fire only in a near-freefall-emergency situation.
In contrary students might not be able to deal with a malfunction. Students open their canopy much higher and if they haven't managed to cut away until 1000ft they won't do below 1000ft and the student cypres will probably save their lifes.

therefore it's very important to have appropriate aads for each user-group. Experts, tandems and students have different skills and needs.

And as this incidence prooves, it's important, that every jumper chooses the type of cypres, that fits it's needs.


Blue skies
Sieglinde
__________
AFF-Instructor, Austria

[Ron 10]

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I think there is something to be said here as well as having areas 'designated' as experinced and low experinced landing areas on the same landing area.

Problem is that low timers often do not have the control to land in an exact area and exp folks all craming into one area is not a good idea either. Several accidents happen when you try and get all the hotshots landing in the same area.

More instruction is need to teach people how to build a stack. The fast canopies land first, the slower canopies land last. Not hard, but you always have some hotshot trying to float, and some guy under a boat trying to land first.

None of that makes sense.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Makes a nice selling point for those AAD's that can be reset for different modes.

Yes, but they also can then be set wrong....IE Solly Williams and his being set to "Tandem" and having a double out.

The best solution might be to actually make people understand the gear they are jumping...to include things they can't see.

WAY too many people have AAD's and have no clue about how they work.....The Perris death where the jumper set the AAD at home (-1200 feet from DZ level) and then drove to the DZ.

Can anyone see a real drawback to every rig (other than Tandem) having an "Expert" AAD?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnMitchell 16]

One day I grabbed a tandem rig set for experienced.

Always check, always check.

[Ron 10]

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One day I grabbed a tandem rig set for experienced.

Always check, always check

I agree, but this case the student didn't know the difference. So its back to education. YOU might catch it, but they most likely will not.

John, can you give me a reason why all rigs don't juts have an "expert" AAD? The only real answer I can think of is legal liability.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[JohnMitchell 16]

Or trying to cover too many bases. The slower activation speed on the student model, to hopefully fire in the event of a bad partial. The ablility to fire, even after the main has deployed, in the event of . . . I don't know, collision, low cutaway, maybe, that puts swoopers at risk.

Even Cypress has stated that there are limitations to what they can and will program in, and that you need to read the manual and be aware of those limitations. This was after the 2 freeflyers died in Europe when they lost track of altitude and their AAD's didn't fire. Their pilot had taken off, then flew down and buzzed a field at a lower elevation than the original DZ. The Cypresses reset for the lower elevation.