Illinois Demands Soviet-Style "Groupthink" in State Classrooms

[wmw999 2,444]

5 hours ago, markharju said:

So you're okay with discrimination as long as you agree with whom it is directed at. Thanks for the clarity. See also https://www.dictionary.com/e/memes/godwins-law/

How is it racist to recognize that white people (particularly rich ones) have privileges that others don't? It's acknowledging that someone who's white and relatively rich doesn't have to work as hard to get to the same place in financial or social stability as someone else. That's true. That doens't mean they can't piss it away, it doesn't mean someone else can't get there -- it just means that it's easier.

Smart people don't always make straight A's in school, and dumber people by working hard can do just as well. Same difference, but school measurements are temporary and somewhat artificial. Also, intelligence can't be bought -- although all the SAT prep schools make it clear that training for it can be.

Wendy P.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

How is it racist to recognize that white people (particularly rich ones) have privileges that others don't? It's acknowledging that someone who's white and relatively rich doesn't have to work as hard to get to the same place in financial or social stability as someone else. That's true. That doens't mean they can't piss it away, it doesn't mean someone else can't get there -- it just means that it's easier.

Smart people don't always make straight A's in school, and dumber people by working hard can do just as well. Same difference, but school measurements are temporary and somewhat artificial. Also, intelligence can't be bought -- although all the SAT prep schools make it clear that training for it can be.

Wendy P.

I lived in trailer parks growing up. Kindly tell me again about my white privilege.

[wmw999 2,444]

Economic privilege is a kind of privilege -- you didn't have that. White privilege is a different kind -- you had that, but it's not as good if you don't also have at least comparative economic privilege. These are things your situation, not yourself, gives you. Social privilege, like having parents that everyone wants to suck up to (nope, never had that), is where you get to decide that some people just don't "fit in," because of who their parents are.

You're not guaranteed any of these privileges even if you have access to them, but it's easy to assume that they're normal, because they're normal for you.

Wendy P.

[jakee 1,489]

12 minutes ago, markharju said:

I lived in trailer parks growing up. Kindly tell me again about my white privilege.

Do you still get treated differently by employers, colleagues, cops and businesses because you grew up in a trailer park? No? Well there it is.

[gowlerk 2,190]

22 minutes ago, markharju said:

I lived in trailer parks growing up.

That must be where you learned to talk so trashy about others.

[jakee 1,489]

Just now, gowlerk said:

That must be where you learned to talk so trashy about others.

Given the reliablility of his personal anecdotes in the past, it's probably more likely that he just went on a family holiday in a motorhome once.

[wmw999 2,444]

Play the topic, not the player.

Wendy P.

[kallend 2,026]

1 hour ago, markharju said:

I lived in trailer parks growing up.

Trailer park - you were lucky.

 

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

2 hours ago, markharju said:

I lived in trailer parks growing up. Kindly tell me again about my white privilege.

Did you have to worry about getting beat up or murdered if you talked to a white girl?
Or even looked at one the "wrong way"?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, jakee said:

Do you still get treated differently by employers, colleagues, cops and businesses because you grew up in a trailer park? No? Well there it is.

From time to time; cultural tells are always there. We white punks also attended the same public schools that the black punks did, and got the same substandard education (when there weren't race riots, of course).

Edited December 7, 2020 by Guest

[Guest]

1 hour ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Did you have to worry about getting beat up or murdered if you talked to a white girl?
Or even looked at one the "wrong way"?

I would if I tried talking to a black girl or looked at one the "wrong way". It was my experience. This was in Florida in the late 60s/early 70s - I doubt much has changed since then. Go ahead, call me a liar.  I don't care.

I like to put it this way: I never owned any slaves (neither did any of my ancestors, which I can prove), and they didn't pick any cotton. I wasn't born biased, but I certainly learned to be as a matter of self-preservation.

[billvon 2,990]

3 hours ago, markharju said:

I lived in trailer parks growing up. Kindly tell me again about my white privilege.

When the cops run into a place with guns drawn, they see you, then they look for the criminal.
When you apply for a loan, it's assumed that you will probably pay it back.
When you go to a door of a house you have never been to before and ring the doorbell, they open the door and ask you what you want.
If a cop sees you and a black person driving away from a robbery, they let you pass and pull over the black person.
When you go to a school, you can take any history class you want and learn about your history.  But you have to take a special class to learn about black history.
The Supreme Court has never had to decide to grant you the same rights everyone else has.

You live in a world of white privilege. But you're inside it, so you can't see it.  To you, that's just "normal."
 

[olofscience 480]

3 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Play the topic, not the player.

Wendy P.

I think the main problem now is that he's using his personal experience to make his argument, so unless he brings other arguments in he becomes part of the topic.

[jakee 1,489]

1 hour ago, markharju said:

I would if I tried talking to a black girl or looked at one the "wrong way". It was my experience. This was in Florida in the late 60s/early 70s - I doubt much has changed since then. Go ahead, call me a liar.  I don't care.

I like to put it this way: I never owned any slaves (neither did any of my ancestors, which I can prove), and they didn't pick any cotton. I wasn't born biased, but I certainly learned to be as a matter of self-preservation.

I can't even fathom the depth of pig-ignorance of someone who grew up in the south at the end of the Jim Crow era who claims he has no choice but to be a racist because those damn black folks were so unreasonably mean to him back then.

[gowlerk 2,190]

1 hour ago, olofscience said:

I think the main problem now is that he's using his personal experience to make his argument, so unless he brings other arguments in he becomes part of the topic.

"Play the topic, not the player.

Wendy P."

 

 

I will admit to stepping over the line unnecessarily. I could have said the same thing in a different way. But I would have needed more words, which I try to avoid.

 

 

Edited December 7, 2020 by gowlerk

[kallend 2,026]

4 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Play the topic, not the player.

Wendy P.

He has made himself the topic.

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

4 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Play the topic, not the player.

Wendy P.

Hi Wendy,

Sorry, I have to agree with olaf & Kallend:

‘I think the main problem now is that he's using his personal experience to make his argument, so unless he brings other arguments in he becomes part of the topic.’

 ‘He has made himself the topic.’

He has brought it onto himself.

Jerry Baumchen

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, jakee said:

I can't even fathom the depth of pig-ignorance of someone who grew up in the south at the end of the Jim Crow era who claims he has no choice but to be a racist because those damn black folks were so unreasonably mean to him back then.

I was attacked by blacks for the unpardonable sin of being white. Where I lived in FL, white kids didn't go out alone after dark. After a couple of episodes like that, I learned to play it safe. If that makes me biased, it's because I have good reasons. Your comparison will now be to blame the victim, as women are blamed for being raped. Go ahead -  I'm waiting.

[jakee 1,489]

28 minutes ago, markharju said:

I was attacked by blacks for the unpardonable sin of being white. Where I lived in FL, white kids didn't go out alone after dark. After a couple of episodes like that, I learned to play it safe. If that makes me biased, it's because I have good reasons. Your comparison will now be to blame the victim, as women are blamed for being raped. Go ahead -  I'm waiting.

Of course. In Florida only a few years after racism and segregation was enshrined in the law of the state, white kids were the true victims of racial disparity in the US. And becuse you personally experienced some discrimination from black people at one point it justifies you being a racist. But because black people as a whole have experienced racism from every level of society throughout the history of the country, it doesn't justify them doing anything at all. 

Along with comments like 'white genocide' I can't describe how odious your attitudes appear.

[billvon 2,990]

54 minutes ago, markharju said:

I was attacked by blacks for the unpardonable sin of being white. Where I lived in FL, white kids didn't go out alone after dark. After a couple of episodes like that, I learned to play it safe. If that makes me biased, it's because I have good reasons. Your comparison will now be to blame the victim, as women are blamed for being raped. Go ahead -  I'm waiting.

Yes, you are just like a woman who was raped.

I am glad for your sake you have never met anyone who was raped.  If someday you do, you are going to experience a somewhat cataclysmic shift in your thinking - and a fair amount of shame to realize that you once thought that.

[gowlerk 2,190]

56 minutes ago, markharju said:

I was attacked by blacks for the unpardonable sin of being white.

Did you talk then and there in a similar way to the way you keyboard here? It is possible that other less offensive white people in your trailer park may have got along somewhat better than you did. 

[mistercwood 287]

Anyone who still can't get their head around the very basic concept of privilege at this point just plain doesn't want to.

[wmw999 2,444]

2 hours ago, markharju said:

I was attacked by blacks for the unpardonable sin of being white. Where I lived in FL, white kids didn't go out alone after dark. After a couple of episodes like that, I learned to play it safe. If that makes me biased, it's because I have good reasons. Your comparison will now be to blame the victim, as women are blamed for being raped. Go ahead -  I'm waiting.

Mark, I have no doubt you were bullied, and no doubt it was at least in part due to your color. However, a woman who is attacked by a man generally doesn't then have prejudice against all men; a person of color who's discriminated against doesn't get to say "fuck it I won't deal with them." Why? Because the man who attacks a woman generally has more power; the white person generally has more power. Consider how much publicity the woman who attacked the man in Central Park got. Why? Because it was a man-bites-dog scenario, and everyone believed the dog, because there was video.

Being willing to doubt yourself is valuable in the long run, because the world around you changes, and you have to be able to change to accommodate it -- rarely does the world actually revolve around anyone but a freestyle skydiver (or at least that's how the joke went).

Wendy P.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, billvon said:

Yes, you are just like a woman who was raped.

I am glad for your sake you have never met anyone who was raped.  If someday you do, you are going to experience a somewhat cataclysmic shift in your thinking - and a fair amount of shame to realize that you once thought that.

Strange conclusion for you to have as it is based upon a blank slate. I have, and have had that epiphany. It doesn't change my bias, however - it reinforces it.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, jakee said:

Of course. In Florida only a few years after racism and segregation was enshrined in the law of the state, white kids were the true victims of racial disparity in the US. And becuse you personally experienced some discrimination from black people at one point it justifies you being a racist. But because black people as a whole have experienced racism from every level of society throughout the history of the country, it doesn't justify them doing anything at all. 

Along with comments like 'white genocide' I can't describe how odious your attitudes appear.

Punishing innocents for the sins of others is both wrong and evil.