creating a list of hard openings

[Bob_Church 7]

I would like to set up a thread for collection information on hard openings. But, I want to put it in the correct forum. Any suggestions?

[piisfish 140]

They hurt

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[councilman24 37]

What criteria? Most newbies think every opening on my Sabre is a hard opening. To me they are normal openings and the openings from canopies like a Spectre are malfunctions that clear.

Openings that break people like Truffer's? Openings that are harder than normal? Openings that break the canopy? Just not sure how to list something subjective like that.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Bob_Church 7]

councilman24

What criteria? Most newbies think every opening on my Sabre is a hard opening. To me they are normal openings and the openings from canopies like a Spectre are malfunctions that clear.

Openings that break people like Truffer's? Openings that are harder than normal? Openings that break the canopy? Just not sure how to list something subjective like that.

You just write it down. This isn't some legally binding contract or being done for USPA.
To me personally, if an opening is hard enough to hospitalize or kill a jumper, or damage the gear or eject a jumper from a harness it should go on the list. But that would be up to whoever wants to submit each item. The point is that other skydivers could look and make their own decisions. I think packing techniques should definitely be included.
Having a record of what's happening is critical to safety in skydiving.

[Bob_Church 7]

piisfish

They hurt

I was sit flying with no jumpsuit once, just enjoying being out in the sky by myself when I realized that I'd spent too much time admiring the clouds and was getting low. I rolled over and tossed it out. My Robo was usually pretty forgiving but there are limits and I had crossed them. I heard my end cells crack open and had time to think "this is going to hurt" before it did. But boy, did it.

[timski 80]

Bob_Church

***What criteria? Most newbies think every opening on my Sabre is a hard opening. To me they are normal openings and the openings from canopies like a Spectre are malfunctions that clear.

Openings that break people like Truffer's? Openings that are harder than normal? Openings that break the canopy? Just not sure how to list something subjective like that.

You just write it down. This isn't some legally binding contract or being done for USPA.
To me personally, if an opening is hard enough to hospitalize or kill a jumper, or damage the gear or eject a jumper from a harness it should go on the list. But that would be up to whoever wants to submit each item. The point is that other skydivers could look and make their own decisions. I think packing techniques should definitely be included.
Having a record of what's happening is critical to safety in skydiving.

My first rig was a used Sabre1 with a couple/few hundred jumps on it. I put a couple hundred more AND started wingsuit flying on it(but not too long!) before buying a custom Storm.
That being said the manual states NOT to tuck the nose BUT that is exactly the advice that I was given, and it worked. In fact the one real fast opening I remember on the Sabre was when I laid the cocoon down and realized I'd forgotten to tuck the nose. I said fuck it and continued the pack job. Yup, didn't do that again!
On the same Sabre1 topic, I recently spoke to a very seasoned rigger in reference to and he said that it's not the canopy which is the problem, its the lines are out of trim, which makes PERFECT sense... Mr Brian Germain will tell you that you can Re-trim lines by stretching them back, but I imagine only for slight out of trim... I'm no rigger BUT Mr Germain does know a thing or two about parachutes.

You can also roll the nose and some other tricks to slow the openings as we know... Ask a Rigger!

[Bob_Church 7]

timski

******What criteria? Most newbies think every opening on my Sabre is a hard opening. To me they are normal openings and the openings from canopies like a Spectre are malfunctions that clear.

Openings that break people like Truffer's? Openings that are harder than normal? Openings that break the canopy? Just not sure how to list something subjective like that.

You just write it down. This isn't some legally binding contract or being done for USPA.
To me personally, if an opening is hard enough to hospitalize or kill a jumper, or damage the gear or eject a jumper from a harness it should go on the list. But that would be up to whoever wants to submit each item. The point is that other skydivers could look and make their own decisions. I think packing techniques should definitely be included.
Having a record of what's happening is critical to safety in skydiving.

My first rig was a used Sabre1 with a couple/few hundred jumps on it. I put a couple hundred more AND started wingsuit flying on it(but not too long!) before buying a custom Storm.
That being said the manual states NOT to tuck the nose BUT that is exactly the advice that I was given, and it worked. In fact the one real fast opening I remember on the Sabre was when I laid the cocoon down and realized I'd forgotten to tuck the nose. I said fuck it and continued the pack job. Yup, didn't do that again!
On the same Sabre1 topic, I recently spoke to a very seasoned rigger in reference to and he said that it's not the canopy which is the problem, its the lines are out of trim, which makes PERFECT sense... Mr Brian Germain will tell you that you can Re-trim lines by stretching them back, but I imagine only for slight out of trim... I'm no rigger BUT Mr Germain does know a thing or two about parachutes.

You can also roll the nose and some other tricks to slow the openings as we know... Ask a Rigger!

Is this a Sabre thing? I wasn't thinking about a particular canopy though I've known one Sabre 2 to shred itself on opening. Neil had gotten it as a demo canopy and this was his first jump on it. Another was a young jumper who was putting his first jump on his new Sabre2 and ended up in ICU with a torn abdominal wall and other damages from the opening.

I had trouble with my Robot but nothing like that. I even flat packed it for a gentler opening but that was for the sore neck, not internal organ damage.
My hardest consistent openings were on my Cruisair. I could let go of the handle and just be open, no time elapsed and no air in my lungs. But it was kind of handy in those days when taking a formation below 2k was just a normal jump. I remember several jumps when I'd get canopy then look around to see of Neil and Mike did or not. Breaking a five way at 1500 directly over Kaiser Aluminums power grid was no time for gentle openings. Neil says he'd be closing, look at his altimeter then shrug and think "well, no jobs anyway" and come on in. And of course we'd be polite and wait for him.

[faulknerwn 38]

Pack jobs have so much to do with it. I have a canopy that normally gives me 1000-1500 ft openings when I pack it. I was crazy busy one day and let a packer pack it. It was one of the hardest openings of my life. But I have never had that canopy even open brisk before or since so it had to have been the pack job...

[Bob_Church 7]

faulknerwn

Pack jobs have so much to do with it. I have a canopy that normally gives me 1000-1500 ft openings when I pack it. I was crazy busy one day and let a packer pack it. It was one of the hardest openings of my life. But I have never had that canopy even open brisk before or since so it had to have been the pack job...

True, but even with a butt-ugly sloppy pack job I don't think a parachute should kill you. Otherwise I'd have been dead years ago.

[mr2mk1g 10]

Years ago on a ZP EXE170 flying top mounted stills and PC101 (or something similar) on the side, had a hard opening for no apparent reason. Neck whiplash for about 2 weeks and a couple of sessions of physio. Despite it being a Sabre 1 clone the canopy was usually well behaved.

Couple of years ago had a Stiletto 150 that would smack the shit out of me on virtually every opening. Was a closet queen with only about 25 jumps on it (avowed at least but it really did look it) even though being something like 15 years old. Tried all the usual tricks but couldn't get it to open nice so it went back in the closet. Probably why it had sat in a closet for so many years.

Last year in August (my last jump for reasons that will become apparent) on a Crossfire 1 149 with a line set about 50 jumps old. Best opening canopy I've ever jumped, love the thing. Tossed the PC and BAM and I head-butted myself in the chest. Immediate, serious pain in the upper back about T2/3 ish. And that was the end of my season. Pain settled to a nagging ache in about a month and I guess that took about 3 more months to dull and by about the end of Jan I no longer felt much of any pain. This was my first jump on the gear after having a replacement bridle installed (same PC) and that was spun up to high hell by the time I landed so something clearly amiss with the kill line length. Can't think that was the cause however... suspect I may just have still been going too fast on deployment so it was probably self-inflicted.

Will have to test it out on some hop+pops. No way I'm taking it to terminal until I'm sure it was just my fault for not bleeding off enough speed.

[gunsmokex 1]

I'll chime in since I jump a canopy that is known for its hard openings.

I jump a Hornet 170 WL 1:1. After doing some research on this canopy I found out that the 2001 and later version had a much bigger slider to solve the hard opening issue. That said though they are still prone to them if you don't pack them right. I used to push the nose all of the way in, that is until I had a slammer opening and pushed my chin into my sternum. Now I simply roll the out 4 cells towards the center cell on each side every opening I've had since then has been great. I believe some people psycho pack them for better openings as well but I haven't quite moved onto that yet.

Also I discovered that if I wrap the hell out of the tail I can get a super sniveling opening, too snivelly for me actually. I had let a friend pack it since I'm not the world's fastest packer by any means and he rolled the hell out of the tail. It was a good 1000' snivel so its a fine balance I guess. But the more I pack and fly this canopy the more I learn about it.

Funny thing is though I had been pushing my nose in for 100 jumps or so and didn't have the hard opening until I got into air where the density altitude was higher. From what I understand the higher the density altitude is the more prone you are to having problems such as mine, or at least it will expose the imperfections in your pack job. I'm wondering if anyone else has had that experience as well?

The other hard opening I had was on a hop and pop with a pilot chute in tow, I looked over my shoulder and then got whacked hard. Not sure what that one was but its the last time that I paid a packer to pack for me. I had no choice though as I was in a canopy course and we had to use packers that day.

[riggerrob 643]

High density altitude means less air resistance, so you are falling faster at the start of deployment.
Initial airspeed is by far the most important variable in predicting hard openings.

[RiggerLee 61]

This has been discussed before. I think there was another guy trying to gather statistics and track down stories.

Let's see what I can remember off the top of my head.

A friend of John Stanford, Dr. Bob or some thing like that. I think he was from NC. He had a hard opening on an old Blue track. Lacerated liver. In the hospital the called the cops on him. They thought he was trying to cover up a auto accident, maybe a hit and run.

The guy from... Kansas? Hard opening off the north end on the runway at skydive dallas. Hard opening, torn aorta. Managed to unstow his toggles and turn 90 before he passed out. Looks like he was dead before he landed.

Red headed guy at skydive dallas. Sit flying, premi on the main. Hard opening. Paralyzed. Could not even reach up to his toggles.

Guy in... Houston? Hard opening. Broken femur. Saber 2.

Dallas, hard opening... broken ribs. Spector.

This one is suspected. No confirmation. Jerry Schrimpture, skydive dallas. Died under canopy. We assumed a heart attack but I talked to Bland once and he thought some of the injuries that were assumed to be from landing might have been from opening but he couldn't get the doctor to commit to that. He had a history of hard openings on that triathlon.

Woman, Eloy... Patty Chernus? Died under canopy. At the time people assumed heart attack or some thing. Never heard further detailes but I think she was jumping a triathlon and they opened hard some times. In retrospect I always wondered if it was a hard opening.

This is just off the top of my head. Some of them are a ways back. My memory may be messing with me but there are at least a few events you could look into and see if you can track down.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[pchapman 279]

Add on:

Mike Truffer (Mr. Skydiving Magazine) 2013
From the thread on it:
Stiletto 107 with HMA lines
broken neck, paralysis, landing injuries, death a month or so later

[pms07 3]

I'm trying to understand what the purpose of your thread is. Sounds like an interesting idea but how do random "Damn, I had a hard opening" anecdotes help? And how do we discern what the possible or probable causes are or what trends exist? Without some sound methodology the data likely will be meaningless.

My suggestion is that you be much clearer on what you want to accomplish and how this could be achieved.

For the record, I have had several hard openings. I also have 2000 plus jumps on a canopy that has an established reputation for hard openings (Sabre 1) and that was not my experience..and I owned 4 in different sizes.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Add on:

Mike Truffer (Mr. Skydiving Magazine) 2013
From the thread on it:
Stiletto 107 with HMA lines
broken neck, paralysis, landing injuries, death a month or so later

Which Thread??
It was Spectra lines also; not Technora or any other High Modulus Aramid
This was according to a few people that I spoke to at Mike's gathering, He supposedly had a lot of jumps on those lines.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[PeteW 0]

I like my Safire 2. Correction i love my Safire 2. No matter how terrible I pack it the openings are soft and 800-1000'. My last jump last year was student gear, 270 navigator I think. I tossed the pc and bam fully open parachute. Slider slammed down over the stoppers(correct terminology?). Heard myself let out a strange groan. No permanent injury but it hurt like hell. I'll keep my rig in date from now on and just jump it.

[jumpsracer 6]

It was my friend who died at SkyDive Dallas on hie 99th jump. His Spectre opened so hard it tore this aorta and he bled out. BTW he was from Oklahoma. RIP Rich!

[obelixtim 150]

To this day, I still believe a tandem fatality back in 1997 was caused by a hard opening.

Tandem terminal, ZP canopy. TM and rider were both limp and unresponsive under canopy, and they landed under a partially open main, not hard enough to fracture lower limbs. The canopy suffered no damage.

Unfortunately they never autopsied the rider, and I never saw the autopsy report for the TM, but I would have been interested to see if they both had a common neck injury.

Consensus opinion from the investigation was they died on landing, but I've always had doubts about that.

At the time I remember thinking that ZP canopies in a tandem terminal situation were a ticking time bomb. (ZP tandem canopies were relatively new back then)

If a canopy blows up on opening, then the opening shock on the humans on the other end is much less.

There is a point where design should include structural failure if opening shocks are beyond the limit. At least the jumper would be alive/awake to deal with the subsequent malfunction.

Death due to hard openings is about as stupid as death from landing fully open canopies. Neither should happen.

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[Divalent 131]

There was more recent double tandem fatality June 2012 due to a hard opening:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4330697

And the thread for the Mike Truffer incident (May 2013) is here:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4490938

Lots of personal stories of hard openings in those threads.

[Jumpingeezer 5]

My Spectre used to open hard on a random basis, but never when I flat packed it. It never had that nice snivelly opening that the Spectre was famous for.

After one particularly hard opening that nearly tore my head off, I sent it back to PD for an evaluation and a reline to Dacron lines.

After a month or so of evaluations, PD told me to pick out the new canopy of my choice free of charge! Great customer service! But I can't help but wonder if PD's outsourcing of the manufacturing of that canopy to another country contributed to the slammer openings that I experienced? Can quality control really be maintained from afar? I doubt it.

My new Storm canopy with Dacron lines suits my aging body just fine.