Nursing home deaths or murders?

[brenthutch 444]

What do you think we should do about Andrew Cuomo (D NY), Tom Wolf (D PA),  Phil Murphy (D NJ), Gavin Newsome (D CA) and Gretchen Whitmer (D MI)?  They forced nursing homes to accept COVID patients, directly resulting in THOUSANDS of deaths in the most vulnerable population.  

[wmw999 2,444]

What, didn't get enough discussion where you posted the same thing in the COVID thread?

Wendy P.

[brenthutch 444]

Just now, wmw999 said:

What, didn't get enough discussion where you posted exactly the same thing in the COVID thread?

Wendy P.

Was told to start a new thread, because I posted it on the Flint MI thread.

[wmw999 2,444]

You're right, it was the Flint thread.

Wendy P.

[riggerrob 643]

A month or so ago, the Quebec gov't announced that 80 percent of COVID 19 deaths were residents of old age homes.

Is that number still accurate?

Why don't they publish COVID statistics by age group?

Yes, I know that as a Skydiver Over Sixty, I am in a vulnerable age group. ... I just want to know how vulnerable.

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

1 hour ago, riggerrob said:

A month or so ago, the Quebec gov't announced that 80 percent of COVID 19 deaths were residents of old age homes.

Is that number still accurate?

Why don't they publish COVID statistics by age group?

Yes, I know that as a Skydiver Over Sixty, I am in a vulnerable age group. ... I just want to know how vulnerable.

Hi Rob,

Re:  'I am in a vulnerable age group. ... I just want to know how vulnerable.'

Let me say it one more time:  Once the doctor slaps you on the ass, all guarantees are off.

Jerry Baumchen

[olofscience 480]

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

What do you think we should do about Andrew Cuomo (D NY), Tom Wolf (D PA),  Phil Murphy (D NJ), Gavin Newsome (D CA) and Gretchen Whitmer (D MI)?  They forced nursing homes to accept COVID patients, directly resulting in THOUSANDS of deaths in the most vulnerable population.  

I guess someone can argue that these people have "duty of care" towards their citizens & constituents, and forcing the nursing homes to accept covid patients was a breach of that responsibility.

Now if the judge or jury accepts that, then it would remain to prove that they actually forced the nursing homes - so emails, threats of punishment/adverse consequences, witness testimony, documents etc would probably be the evidence.

We had a similar situation here in the UK where the government did send covid patients back to nursing homes, causing carnage early last year. I'm not aware of any legal cases against them because of that however. I'm sure the relatives of those who died would be quite motivated to pursue justice, but I'm not a lawyer so I really don't know how these would stand up in court.

[DougH 270]

47 minutes ago, olofscience said:

I guess someone can argue that these people have "duty of care" towards their citizens & constituents, and forcing the nursing homes to accept covid patients was a breach of that responsibility.

It was a shit sandwich either way.

States were flying by the seat of their pants, especially given the limited guidance from the Fed. We were just starting to figure all of this out.

They were faced with capacity constraints at the hospitals, and I don't think at that time it was known just how stratified the risk curve was based on age and comorbidities. From a triage sense I could understand sending nursing home patients back to nursing homes if you thought that you were going to run out of hospital capacity causing more able-bodied "treatable" individuals to die because there were no icu beds available.

I think it was a failure to plan, and a failure of imagination. It is probably too simple to call it gross negligence, it was probably more of a case of trying to do the least amount of overall harm to the society. I am glad I didn't have to make those calls myself.

Edited January 15, 2021 by DougH

[wmw999 2,444]

What DougH said. They were in a situation where something had to be done. Ya know, in some cases it might even have been the right decision, but with facilities without as much capability to isolate it was devastating. 
Hopefully there won’t be a need to drag that knowledge out too soon again. 
It’s kind of like the decision tree when you have a horseshoe or a pilot chute in tow.  What’s the right decision for some of them is the wrong one for others — and you’re in the middle of a skydive. 
Wendy P. 

[BIGUN 1,307]

8 hours ago, brenthutch said:

What do you think we should do about Andrew Cuomo (D NY), Tom Wolf (D PA),  Phil Murphy (D NJ), Gavin Newsome (D CA) and Gretchen Whitmer (D MI)?  They forced nursing homes to accept COVID patients, directly resulting in THOUSANDS of deaths in the most vulnerable population.

Nothing. He was following FEMA's Incident Command System and the roles and responsibilities for Emergency Support Functions six & eight. (ESF 6 & 8). During a disaster, emergency, etc. and there is a medical surge, no different than rolling up on a large airplane crash; one has to prioritize (triage) the situation. Nursing homes are part of the national emergency response framework and shifting sick people out of hospitals and into nursing homes that are not needing emergency critical care is part of that framework. Wait till it gets bad enough that they start shifting people to Veterinary Clinics. 

There's a whole lot of reasons to hate Cuomo, but that ain't one of them.   

Edited January 16, 2021 by BIGUN
oops

[brenthutch 444]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Nothing. He was following FEMA's Incident Command System and the roles and responsibilities for Emergency Support Functions six & eight. (ESF 6 & 8). During a disaster, emergency, etc. and there is a medical surge, no different than rolling up on a large airplane crash; one has to prioritize (triage) the situation. Nursing homes are part of the national emergency response framework and shifting sick people out of hospitals and into nursing homes that are not needing emergency critical care is part of that framework. Wait till it gets bad enough that they start shifting people to Veterinary Clinics. 

There's a whole lot of reasons to hate Cuomo, but that ain't one of them.   

Not just Cuomo.....Wolf, Murphy, Newsome, and Whitmer.  By the time it got to CA, PA and MI we knew better 

[BIGUN 1,307]

10 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Not just Cuomo.....Wolf, Murphy, Newsome, and Whitmer.  By the time it got to CA, PA and MI we knew better 

Every state has an Emergency Management Agency. Every agency has a copy of the national incident management system (NIMS). It's the same playbook and we all attended the national and regional exercises. I cannot speak for the Governor's you mention and if the plan was already being rolled out before anyone knew . . .

But, I do happen to notice they each have a (D) after their names whereas, you don't include DeSantis. According to the Florida Healthcare System; there have been 7,000+ confirmed deaths from the virus among residents and staff at long-term care facilities.

There's 50 Governor's who did not do well There's an entire world of countries who made mistakes. There's a whole lot of other reasons to throw rocks at politicians, but this ain't one of them and your aim is off - why not include the countries' leaders?. And, there's a whole lot more R's that refuse to wear a fucking mask and I've now buried three friends in the last six weeks. 

[brenthutch 444]

18 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Every state has an Emergency Management Agency. Every agency has a copy of the national incident management system (NIMS). It's the same playbook and we all attended the national and regional exercises. I cannot speak for the Governor's you mention and if the plan was already being rolled out before anyone knew . . .

But, I do happen to notice they each have a (D) after their names whereas, you don't include DeSantis. According to the Florida Healthcare System; there have been 7,000+ confirmed deaths from the virus among residents and staff at long-term care facilities.

 

DeSantis, didn’t order nursing homes to accept COVID patients, nor did other governors, many with a D after their names.  While we didn’t know everything about the virus, EVERYONE knows that the elderly are particularly vulnerable to pathogens of any sort.

[BIGUN 1,307]

2 hours ago, brenthutch said:

DeSantis, didn’t order nursing homes to accept COVID patients, nor did other governors, many with a D after their names.  While we didn’t know everything about the virus, EVERYONE knows that the elderly are particularly vulnerable to pathogens of any sort.

While the first part is correct, DeSantis did fuck up by not having the elderly tested and took a whack-a-mole approach (Outbreak- React) to outbreaks in the nursing facilities. There were some nursing homes that couldn't get the proper PPE even after requesting it from the Governor's office - not even masks. Look up Seminole Nursing facility. Complete goat-fuck. 

And, you're right -  "EVERYONE knows that the elderly are particularly vulnerable to pathogens of any sort," and they should know that the caretakers and medical professionals are the ones who pass the pathogens on to the elderly.

I'm not going to get into a long circular debate with you, Brent. Your agenda was clear in the first post. The bottom line is, EVERYONE has fucked this up from the top down no matter what (X) is after their name. 

PSA: Wear a fucking mask. The life you protect could be a family member. 

Edited January 16, 2021 by BIGUN
*you're not your - more coffee

[brenthutch 444]

25 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Brent. Your agenda was clear in the first post. The bottom line is, EVERYONE has fucked this up from the top down no matter what (X) is after their name. 

 

My first post was in response to the recent charges against former MI Governor Snyder for his mishandling of the flint water crisis.  I asked if Snyder should be charged when a handful of folks died, what should we do about Cuomo and company who were responsible for the deaths of thousands?  I was advised to start a new thread and did so.  I can see how you would think i was pursuing an agenda without this context. I should have been more clear on my OP.

 

Edited January 16, 2021 by brenthutch

[kallend 2,026]

3 hours ago, BIGUN said:

The bottom line is, EVERYONE has fucked this up from the top down no matter what (X) is after their name. 

PSA: Wear a fucking mask. The life you protect could be a family member. 

Not "EVERYONE", especially if you look outside the USA.  Jacinda Ardern comes to mind.

 

+1 on mask usage.

[BIGUN 1,307]

2 hours ago, kallend said:

Jacinda Ardern comes to mind.

Except one. I'll give you that. She started early and hard.

[headoverheels 333]

56 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Except one. I'll give you that. She started early and hard.

Tsai Ing-wen did even better.  12x better on a per capita basis.

Edited January 16, 2021 by headoverheels

[Westerly 61]

16 hours ago, BIGUN said:

 The bottom line is, EVERYONE has fucked this up from the top down no matter what (X) is after their name. 

 

There are some countries doing very well actually. New Zealand and Vietnam have done very well. They both have next to no cases.

[BIGUN 1,307]

7 hours ago, Westerly said:

They both have next to no cases.

Well, according to the Who Coronavirus map; Turkmenistan and North Korea are obviously doing even better than them with 0 cases and 0 deaths.

[Westerly 61]

7 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Well, according to the Who Coronavirus map; Turkmenistan and North Korea are obviously doing even better than them with 0 cases and 0 deaths.

Except both of those numbers are bullshit, so not really. Sort of like how China was the epicenter of the outbreak, but suddenly one day they went from thousands of cases a day to zero overnight. Ugh ha.

Edited January 17, 2021 by Westerly

[wmw999 2,444]

Trust me, Bigun is quite aware of the likelihood of truth there

Wendy P.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

32 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Trust me, Bigun is quite aware of the likelihood of truth there

Wendy P.

We REALLY need a 'sarcasm' font.

[BIGUN 1,307]

1 hour ago, Westerly said:

Except both of those numbers are bullshit, so not really.

Yeah, I was being sarcastic and prolly shoulda .<sarcasm> that shit</sarcasm>.

Edited January 17, 2021 by BIGUN

[gowlerk 2,190]

29 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Yeah, I was being sarcastic and prolly shoulda .<sarcasm> that shit</sarcasm>.

It was pretty obvious. But sarcasm is a major thing in me!