President Biden, critics corner

[gowlerk 2,190]

14 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

I'll bet you have a friend who is Christian.  

Many. I have a brother who announced to me a couple years ago that he had become Christian. He assumed I would give him a hard time about it. But I simply told him that everyone has to believe something and the only way it would matter to me is is he tried to convince me to convert. Personally I do not approve of atheists who feel a need to ridicule others beliefs just because they are ridiculous. It is pointless and harmful. The problems caused by various religions is not the fantastical doctrines that they all have. It is their tribal behaviors towards others. As mean as atheists can sometimes be their behavior always involves words, not weapons. I suppose a notable exception may be the violent suppression of religion by various secular communist regimes. That was a class power struggle against the power misused by the church for centuries.

Edited December 22, 2021 by gowlerk

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

22 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

...But, we digress. The point being that the same verbiage used against blacks (or any culture) is used against the Christian culture on this site. I'll bet you have a friend who is Christian.  

Ah yes. The "War on Christianity".

I know lots of Christians. Far, far, faaaaar more than any other religion.
Same as I know far more white people than any other.

Those who honestly practice the teachings of Jesus, who don't use their faith as a weapon, who genuinely believe get my respect.

Those who are hypocrites, who try to convert others, threaten 'hell & damnation' for those who are different, who try to get their faith installed as laws...
Not so much.

[Coreece 190]

32 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

As mean as atheists can sometimes be their behavior always involves words, not weapons. I suppose a notable exception may be the violent suppression of religion by various secular communist regimes. That was a class power struggle against the power misused by the church for centuries.

We've talked about this before, but you never responded:

 

QUESTION:  Equating people who happen to be atheists with the political dogma of Stalinism?  Come on man.

ANSWER:  No, I'm talking about atheist rhetoric of today and it's similarities with anti-religious propaganda, even before Stalin.

After the Bolos took over, there was still a fierce debate over how the "opiate of religion" should be handled.  Those on the right felt that that religion would  just die naturally with the influence of science, education and anti-religious propaganda, especially after the elimination of religion in schools and the public square.  Those on the left felt a more militant approach was necessary.  As they grew weary of waiting for religion to die, the full might of the leftist's militant approach was realized.

 

 

QUESTION:  You just throw out some actions by the Communists in the Soviet Union and pretend that that's how ALL atheists act?

ANSWER:  Nah, I've already mentioned how some atheists were sickened with how the religious were being treated, and opposed a militant approach, but history is full of examples of relatively good, well intentioned people finding themselves in precarious situations and doing very bad things.

 

 

QUESTION:  Didn't those in power in the USSR do everything they could to stop anyone and anything that threatened their power?

ANSWER:  Absolutely, but they obviously had a special kind of hard-on for eliminating religion, especially when they got tired of waiting for it to die off after the Russian civil war like they had hoped, which is why they amped-up production of strictly anti-religious newspapers and designated various groups like the Militant Godless and other atheist goons to promote atheism by any means necessary.

“Militant atheism is not merely incidental or marginal to Communist policy. It is not a side effect, but the central pivot” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn  

 

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/267117-solstice-celebration/?do=findComment&comment=4880994

[Coreece 190]

52 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

That was a class power struggle against the power misused by the church for centuries.

Also, what does that have to do with the tens of million of innocent people imprisoned/killed that had nothing to do with that abuse, or were merely found guilty by association.

I'm mean that train of thought approaches the likes of holocaust denialism. 

[gowlerk 2,190]

33 minutes ago, Coreece said:

“Militant atheism is not merely incidental or marginal to Communist policy. It is not a side effect, but the central pivot” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn  

Yet that veteran of the Soviet system currently in power and trying to restore the glory of the empire is among the most ardent supporters of the orthodox church. The reality is that organized religions are about organization and power. Doctrine is just a tool.

[kallend 2,026]

15 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

In this dirty old part of the city
Where the sun refused to shine
People tell me there ain't no use in tryin'

You animal!

[ryoder 1,590]

1 minute ago, kallend said:

You animal!

No, no! I think he was quoting the philosopher Burdon.

[BIGUN 1,307]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Personally I do not approve of atheists who feel a need to ridicule others beliefs just because they are ridiculous.

Case in point. 

[gowlerk 2,190]

9 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Case in point. 

All religious doctrines are ridiculous when you look at them logically. You may have a hard time accepting that. Christianity, Islam, Scientology, Mormonism, Buddhism, or what have you. They all require a belief in magic. That is why they get ridiculed.  

More to the point, they not only require a belief in magic they also demand that you believe that the others magic is ridiculous. Complaining about suppression of the religion you believe in while denying the legitimacy of a different belief is pretty much the height of hypocrisy. If you are someone who complains that Christians are mistreated but at the same time have no problem with the way Scientologists are treated I have very little to discuss with you.

Edited December 22, 2021 by gowlerk

[Stumpy 284]

8 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

More to the point, they not only require a belief in magic they also demand that you believe that the others magic is ridiculous.

This was probably the biggest thing as a child that brought me to the conclusion that it was all bs. The fact that there were different groups of people with opposing viewpoints, all equally convinced that theirs was the "one true way". The only reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.

[BIGUN 1,307]

24 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

More to the point, they not only require a belief in magic they also demand that you believe that the others magic is ridiculous. Complaining about suppression of the religion you believe in while denying the legitimacy of a different belief is pretty much the height of hypocrisy. If you are someone who complains that Christians are mistreated but at the same time have no problem with the way Scientologists are treated I have very little to discuss with you.

Ken, the point being that Christianity is a culture. You may not agree with everything in that culture, but as liberals would you publicly lambast another culture they way you do Christians on here?  

[gowlerk 2,190]

13 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Ken, the point being that Christianity is a culture. You may not agree with everything in that culture, but as liberals would you publicly lambast another culture they way you do Christians on here?  

Yes, it is a culture. And it is a culture that has a very long and successful tradition of suppressing by whatever means it can find any competing cultures. Liberals and atheists like Christians are not a monolithic culture. Believe it or not, there are liberal Christians. And conservative atheists. I know this for certain. I have already stated the way I believe all theologies should be treated and how I treat them. I can not answer for others. But I can state that Christians have very little to complain about in western society. The overall treatment they receive as a group is far better than how they treat others. I may note that their beliefs are ridiculous when asked, but I don't really care about those. I care about their actions.

 

There is a movement within some US evangelical churches to make the USA a one religion state. What do you have to say about that? 

Edited December 22, 2021 by gowlerk

[Phil1111 1,149]

9 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Ken, the point being that Christianity is a culture. You may not agree with everything in that culture, but as liberals would you publicly lambast another culture they way you do Christians on here?  

Christians are not the only "culture" that believes that non-members of that group should have their rights and freedoms infringed. That calling out the Christian right is both deserved and warranted.

"INDORE, India — The Christians were mid-hymn when the mob kicked in the door.

A swarm of men dressed in saffron poured inside. They jumped onstage and shouted Hindu supremacist slogans. They punched pastors in the head. They threw women to the ground, sending terrified children scuttling under their chairs.

“They kept beating us, pulling out hair,” said Manish David, one of the pastors who was assaulted. “They yelled: ‘What are you doing here? What songs are you singing? What are you trying to do?’”

The attack unfolded on the morning of Jan. 26 at the Satprakashan Sanchar Kendra Christian center in the city of Indore."

[Phil1111 1,149]

Further to Christians being attacked in India:

"New Delhi/Roorkee, India – In late October, India’s Prime Minister Narendra Modi met and invited Pope Francis to India, the country with the second-largest Christian population in Asia.

However, in a speech about two weeks earlier, Mohan Bhagwat, head of the far-right Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), the ideological mentor of Modi’s Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), warned Hindus about religious conversions and alleged “demographic changes” in India’s northeastern states, which have a large Christian population...

In his annual speech on October 14 to mark the Hindu festival of Dussehra (also known as Durga Puja), Bhagwat said: “Rising population and demographic imbalance need to be addressed and population policy is to be redesigned. And that policy should be applicable to all irrespective of caste and creed. Illegal immigration in bordering districts and conversions in [the] northeast have changed the demographics further.”

The RSS aims to create an ethnic Hindu state out of India. As the head of Sangh Parivar, the umbrella group of Hindu nationalist organisations including the BJP, Bhagwat’s Dussehra speech is considered an agenda-setter for the year."

The language of the BJP party, the ruling party, is remarkably similar to that of the US Christian right. Certainly the GOP party and its leadership.

[gowlerk 2,190]

2 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

A swarm of men dressed in saffron poured inside. They jumped onstage and shouted Hindu supremacist slogans. They punched pastors in the head. They threw women to the ground, sending terrified children scuttling under their chairs.

This is another example of bad behavior by a dominant religion within a society. It would seem that this kind of thing has been done over and over again by Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Jews and whoever against whatever tribe is smaller and less powerful. It has nothing to do with theology and everything to do with tribal power. 

[BIGUN 1,307]

7 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

There is a movement within some US evangelical churches to make the USA a one religion state. What do you have to say about that?

We would say the same thing - not gonna happen. The First Amendment's Establishment Clause prohibits the government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” This clause not only forbids the government from establishing an official religion, but also prohibits government actions that unduly favor one religion over another.

[gowlerk 2,190]

Just now, BIGUN said:

We would say the same thing - not gonna happen. The First Amendment's Establishment Clause prohibits the government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion.” This clause not only forbids the government from establishing an official religion, but also prohibits government actions that unduly favor one religion over another.

I agree. But the point is that there are powerful forces who want this to happen. Not only is it clearly against the constitution, it won't happen because any serious attempt to make it happen would result in whatever level of conflict is needed to stop it from happening. 

 

[Phil1111 1,149]

37 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I agree. But the point is that there are powerful forces who want this to happen. Not only is it clearly against the constitution, it won't happen because any serious attempt to make it happen would result in whatever level of conflict is needed to stop it from happening.

Significantly understates the issue. “If we are going to have one nation under God, which we must, we have to have one religion,” Flynn declared at a right-wing rally last weekend at Cornerstone Church in San Antonio, Texas. “One nation under God and one religion under God.”

At that same church worship ;"Viral video from the rally also showed attendees in the pews chanting, “Let’s go, Brandon!” The phrase, popular among the Trump-won crowd, is a code for "Fuck Joe Biden."

A better example than above of the current state of affairs of Christianity in American cannot be found. Here is the video from the church with the chant starting at 21 seconds.

"Project Blitz is a coalition of Christian right groups" The first tier of Project Blitz aims at importing the Christian nationalist worldview into public schools and other aspects of the public sphere, the second tier aims at making government increasingly a partner in “Christianizing” America, and the third tier contains three types of proposed laws that “protect” religious beliefs and practices specifically intended to benefit bigotry."

Be it gerrymandering, anti-abortion laws, anti LGBT laws the christian right through its proxy party the GOP. Have enacted legislation and measures that are not previously considered conservative. But in fact are white Christian in effect.

Edited December 22, 2021 by Phil1111

[gowlerk 2,190]

6 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

A better example than above of the current state of affairs of Christianity in American cannot be found.

Paying too much attention to this overstates the strength of this movement. It needs watching and we need to be aware for sure. It is more than a fringe group but less than a serious threat. For now.

Edited December 22, 2021 by gowlerk

[JerryBaumchen 1,362]

1 hour ago, Stumpy said:

This was probably the biggest thing as a child that brought me to the conclusion that it was all bs. The fact that there were different groups of people with opposing viewpoints, all equally convinced that theirs was the "one true way". The only reasonable conclusion is that they are all wrong.

Hi Stumpy,

Re:  the biggest thing as a child that brought me to the conclusion that it was all bs. 

For me, it was about 1956.  I was 16 & my brother was 15.  For some unknown reason, our mother decided we should attend Bible Study.  This was at a church that my family attended maybe twice a year.  What triggered the idea of attendance at two random times of the year, I have no idea.

Anyway, during these studies, the pastor was telling us about how if one accepts Jesus Christ they will go to Heaven.  I got into a discussion with him about this.  We went back & forth.  He told me that a person can live any type of life that they might want; good, bad, evil, does not matter.  If they accepted Jesus Christ on their deathbed, they would get into Heaven.

At that time, I thought that was about the nuttiest thing I had ever heard.  I've been a heathen ever since.

Jerry Baumchen

[Phil1111 1,149]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Paying too much attention to this overstates the strength of this movement. It needs watching and we need to be aware for sure. It is more than a fringe group but less than a serious threat. For now.

So you're saying at this point that the Christian right doesn't control or call the tune of the GOP in American politics?

[billvon 2,991]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

Yes, it is a culture. And it is a culture that has a very long and successful tradition of suppressing by whatever means it can find any competing cultures.

While simultaneously claiming victimhood.

But to Bigun's point, as annoying as that is, they have as much of a right to exist as any other religion.

[gowlerk 2,190]

34 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

So you're saying at this point that the Christian right doesn't control or call the tune of the GOP in American politics?

Correct. Not only that but the Christian right is not monolithic. The really base of people calling for this are not doing primarily because the want more Christ in society. They are doing it because they are white nationalists. They fear losing the control that they believe is the source of all things good. They are a large part of the GoP, and they have outsize influence because they vote in primaries, but they are not as strong as they appear.

[gowlerk 2,190]

10 minutes ago, billvon said:

But to Bigun's point, as annoying as that is, they have as much of a right to exist as any other religion.

Exactly, but no more right than any other religion. And they are far from the most annoying group. However they are the largest group in our corner of the world. I actually believe that eventually Islam will overcome that. Unfortunate as that is.

[brenthutch 444]

My Biden report card

Inflation: F

COVID: F

Border: F

Supply Chain: F

Crime: F

Bringing the country together: F

Energy independence: F

Opioid crisis: F 

Climbing stairs: F

Not being Trump: A+

Edited December 23, 2021 by brenthutch