President Biden, critics corner

[kallend 2,063]

Just because any job  is hypothetically going to create union jobs does not in any way make it automatically  right.

Building a Nazi style death camp would probably require union labor too.  I would still oppose it.

 

[Westerly 61]

the XL pipeline is the easiest and cheapest way to transport oil. You want cheap gas and cheap shipping? Then you need to keep the overhead down. You cant have it both ways. You cant have no environmental impact and cheap prices. The cost of oil affects everything from the rent you pay to the cost of crap on Amazon--nothing is untouched by oil. Oil costs go up, all costs everywhere go up.

I do find it paradoxical that the administration is concerned with splitting hairs over a $1000 check vs a $1400 one for relief, yet fail to see that executing an action that will increase the cost of fuel will cost tens of thousands of dollars per person over many years in the form of increased inflation due to higher overhead costs.

[billvon 3,030]

2 minutes ago, Westerly said:

the XL pipeline is the easiest and cheapest way to transport oil. You want cheap gas and cheap shipping? Then you need to keep the overhead down. You cant have it both ways. 

I agree.  Cheap-as-dirt oil has been responsible for a lot of our current problems - pollution, climate change, barriers to entry for alternatives etc.  I see no reason to make it even cheaper.

[Phil1111 1,149]

6 minutes ago, Westerly said:

the XL pipeline is the easiest and cheapest way to transport oil. You want cheap gas and cheap shipping? Then you need to keep the overhead down. You cant have it both ways. You cant have no environmental impact and cheap prices. The cost of oil affects everything from the rent you pay to the cost of crap on Amazon--nothing is untouched by oil. Oil costs go up, all costs everywhere go up.

I do find it paradoxical that the administration is concerned with splitting hairs over a $1000 check vs a $1400 one for relishowef, yet fail to see that executing an action that will increase the cost of fuel will cost tens of thousands of dollars per person over many years in the form of increased inflation due to higher overhead costs.

I'm in favor of the XL mainly because its the safest way to transport oil. Oil pipelines entirely within the US may not be built or proposed now given the cost of licensing and permits.

The cost to Americans for the cancellation would possibly be a couple pennies per gallon at most. Studies show that undiluted shipments of bitumen or heavy oil by rail is very competitive with pipelines being 12% to 31% less for rail versus committed pipelines.

There will likely be additional train derailments due to the safety difference due to increased train traffic to the US.

[Phil1111 1,149]

21 minutes ago, billvon said:

I agree.  Cheap-as-dirt oil has been responsible for a lot of our current problems - pollution, climate change, barriers to entry for alternatives etc.  I see no reason to make it even cheaper.

A low cost of petroleum should be used to increase the taxation base for carbon taxes. Such that the state and end users can properly cost pollution, global warming and other damages to those impacted. It certainly should not be cheap and IMO a carbon tax will be a difficult sell to Americans.

[wmw999 2,482]

My main objection to pipelines (besides that they do, in fact, make oil so cheap and easy, kind of like disposable fashion and cheap furniture) is that they generallly only go through the lands of people who don't have enough money to fight legally. So they're even more dispossessed. They have to move, and that changes their day-to-day dynamic.

Why not fuck over someone rich, who can afford a new deposit?

Wendy P.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 minute ago, wmw999 said:

My main objection to pipelines (besides that they do, in fact, make oil so cheap and easy, kind of like disposable fashion and cheap furniture) is that they generallly only go through the lands of people who don't have enough money to fight legally. So they're even more dispossessed. They have to move, and that changes their day-to-day dynamic.

Why not fuck over someone rich, who can afford a new deposit?

Wendy P.

Maps close to cities show gas(natural) and oil pipelines all over. This is a map of current large oil pipelines to the US with the cancelled XL in green. If the pipelines were not marked nobody would know were they are.

[wmw999 2,482]

Except for the people whose expropriated land they go through. Think of the Dakota pipeline. People actually use that land.

I completely agree that pipelines are safer than either trains or trucks. We just don't value impact on poor people the same as rich people.

Wendy P.

[billvon 3,030]

15 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Maps close to cities show gas(natural) and oil pipelines all over. This is a map of current large oil pipelines to the US with the cancelled XL in green. If the pipelines were not marked nobody would know were they are.

Oh I think a lot of people know where they are.

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2019/08/02/kentucky-gas-pipeline-explosion-investigation-could-take-12-18-months/1901141001/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/11/01/keystone-pipeline-leak-oil-spilled-north-dakota/4121954002/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion

https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96090&page=1

[Westerly 61]

58 minutes ago, billvon said:

I agree.  Cheap-as-dirt oil has been responsible for a lot of our current problems - pollution, climate change, barriers to entry for alternatives etc.  I see no reason to make it even cheaper.

Our oil is not cheap as dirt. Gas is like $2.50 a gallon. In some middle eastern countries it is less than $0.50 a gallon. That is cheap. People seem to have a short memory. Were you alive a few years ago when gas was $4-5 a gallon? That sucked and it made everything, everywhere worse. People were spending more on gas just to drive to work than they were spending on food every month. UPS, FedEx, USPS and everyone else jacked their shipping prices way up. That in turn lead to higher prices everywhere. Everything was more expensive, everywhere, under all conditions because gas was overpriced.

I remember that very well. I was working harder for what was essentially less money because the cost of living was higher. Oh and guess what, gas goes back up to $5 a gallon and here comes $35 jump tickets easy. 
 

Edited February 2, 2021 by Westerly

[billvon 3,030]

12 minutes ago, Westerly said:

Our oil is not cheap as dirt. Gas is like $2.50 a gallon. In some middle eastern countries it is less than $0.50 a gallon. That is cheap. People seem to have a short memory. Were you alive a few years ago when gas was $4-5 a gallon?

Gas is cheap as dirt.  We are well below the world average of $1.06 per liter, and are in the cheapest 25% of countries. Our cars and trucks (and boats, and snowmobiles etc) reflect that.

Quote

Were you alive a few years ago when gas was $4-5 a gallon? That sucked and it made everything, everywhere worse.

Not for me.  I had an EV even back then.  And before that I had a hybrid, and didn't care too much about gas prices.

Keep those prices for five years and people start buying efficient cars (and hybrids, and EV's) like they did.  Demand drops - and prices come down, which they did.

Keep those prices for ten years and not only does demand (and CO2 emissions) go down even more, but now you don't need that second Keystone pipeline any more.

Quote

I remember that very well. I was working harder for what was essentially less money because the cost of living was higher.

I guess you'd have to get an EV.  (Or keep paying lots for gas; your choice.)

[Westerly 61]

9 minutes ago, billvon said:

Gas is cheap as dirt.  We are well below the world average of $1.06 per liter, and are in the cheapest 25% of countries.

Not for me.  I had an EV even back then.  And before that I had a hybrid, and didn't care too much about gas prices.

Keep those prices for five years and people start buying efficient cars (and hybrids, and EV's) like they did.  Demand drops - and prices come down, which they did.

Keep those prices for ten years and not only does demand (and CO2 emissions) go down even more, but now you don't need that second Keystone pipeline any more.

I guess you'd have to get an EV.  (Or keep paying lots for gas; your choice.)

I had and still have a Prius which at the time was the most fuel efficient car in existence. Also not everyone can afford a $70,000 Tesla so that doesent exactly solve problems. Also, even if I had free gas, that doesent change the fact that oil is tied to the price of everything. All shipping costs go up, airline costs go up, transportation costs go up, manufacturing costs go up. Guess what, that means rent goes up, food goes up, your crap on Amazon goes up.

Oil affects the price of everything. There is no product or service sold in the United States that is not affected by the cost of oil. Want proof? Just ask California who has the highest gas prices and highest cost of living prices (3rd in the nation) of any state. Part of that is because the cost of oil there is high due to strict emissions (CARB) requirements and taxing. In CA, making $20 an hour gets you the back seat of your station wagon to live in. In other states, you can live on 20 an hour.

Edited February 2, 2021 by Westerly

[Phil1111 1,149]

17 minutes ago, billvon said:

Oh I think a lot of people know where they are.

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2019/08/02/kentucky-gas-pipeline-explosion-investigation-could-take-12-18-months/1901141001/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/11/01/keystone-pipeline-leak-oil-spilled-north-dakota/4121954002/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bruno_pipeline_explosion

https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96090&page=1

While thats true in the US 70% of oil is moved by pipelines. Virtually every farmer is connected to a Nat gas pipeline for heating in most states. In the end its safer both for oil and gas.

[billvon 3,030]

Just now, Westerly said:

I had and still have a Prius which at the time was the most fuel efficient car in existence. Also not everyone can afford a $70,000 Tesla so that doesent exactly solve problems.

If you have lots of money buy the Tesla.

If you don't, and just want to get to work for real cheap, buy a $4000 used Leaf.  There are four used Leafs under that price near me.

Quote

Also, even if I had free gas, that doesent change the fact that oil is tied to the price of everything. All shipping costs go up, airline costs go up, transportation costs go up, manufacturing costs go up. Guess what, that means rent goes up, food goes up, your crap on Amazon goes up.

Yep.  And suddenly the market has a HUGE incentive to find alternatives for most of that.  Shippers switch to more efficient engines and rail.  Cement manufacture uses solar thermal instead of fossil fuels.  Amazon starts carrying more local stuff that costs less to ship.  American manufacturing benefits.

Quote

You dont seem to get it. Oil affects the price of everything. There is no product or service sold in the United States that is not affected by the cost of oil.

Because it's as cheap as dirt.  Change that, and the use of oil changes.

America used to run on horses.  That changed when a better/cheaper alternative came along.  Before that could happen, of course, a LOT of work (and money) had to go in to roads, car design and manufacture, driver training, policing and regulation etc.  But we did it because it was a better alternative.

Today is no different.  But we won't get there unless there's an incentive to change.  Higher oil prices are one such incentive.

[Phil1111 1,149]

2 minutes ago, Westerly said:

....Oil affects the price of everything. There is no product or service sold in the United States that is not affected by the cost of oil. if oil goes up, the cost of living everywhere goes up.

That is not a very powerful argument. The price of water, communication, roads, electricity, etc. all drive up the cost of living. If your neighbor draws so much water from the local creek that the creek goes dry. Leaving all those downstream having to haul water is that increase in living costs fair?

[billvon 3,030]

5 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

While thats true in the US 70% of oil is moved by pipelines. Virtually every farmer is connected to a Nat gas pipeline for heating in most states. In the end its safer both for oil and gas.

I agree that it is safer.  That does not mean it's more desirable overall.

Cigarettes with filters are safer than unfiltered cigarettes.  What's the better strategy?  Targeting kids with ads to use filtered cigarettes?  Or trying to keep them from smoking to begin with?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

9 minutes ago, Westerly said:

There is no product or service sold in the United States that is not affected by the cost of oil.

Not sure how GME options are affected by the cost of oil.

[billvon 3,030]

1 minute ago, Phil1111 said:

That is not a very powerful argument. The price of water, communication, roads, electricity, etc. all drive up the cost of living. If your neighbor draws so much water from the local creek that the creek goes dry. Leaving all those downstream having to haul water is that increase in living costs fair?

Good example!  Wouldn't it be better for the municipality to charge him more for drawing all that water out, so that he uses the water more efficiently?  And so he can no longer afford to take ALL the water?  That way he still gets most of the benefit of having that water there - AND the people downstream are not harmed.

Imagine if that neighbor said "all that matters is that I get that water for as low a cost as I can.  That way I will charge you less for the food I grow in my garden."  Would you buy that argument?  Or would you argue that his taking all the water imposes a hidden cost on you?

[Westerly 61]

14 minutes ago, billvon said:

 

Yep.  And suddenly the market has a HUGE incentive to find alternatives for most of that.  Shippers switch to more efficient engines and rail.  Cement manufacture uses solar thermal instead of fossil fuels.  Amazon starts carrying more local stuff that costs less to ship.  American manufacturing benefits.

 

Except none of that actually happened. What actually did happen is shit just got more expensive as they just passed the prices off to the consumer. What are you going to, just not use shipping services anymore? Just not buy food anymore? Yea, some companies did optimize to more fuel efficient methods during the age of the $5 gallon of gas and some people sold their SUVs for smaller cars, but in the end what really happened is everyone just paid more money for shit and that was the end of the story. 

Also, last I checked hybrid planes arnt a thing, so guess what $35 jump tickets is still a reality. Also, electric cars are not an end all be all and they are not the future. Electric has substantial limitations. Good luck driving cross country in an electric car. It's risky at best and flat out impossible in some areas. Electric can easily cost more than gas in some areas as well. There used to be free charging stations everywhere. That is long gone. Now you're paying quite a bit for electric charging making the value much less attractive. 

I find it funny that the tree huggers are like 'I got my electric car so I am saving CO2 emissions' but fail to realize the power plant that provides electricity to their 'green' car is powered by fossil fuels....

Edited February 2, 2021 by Westerly

[airdvr 210]

19 minutes ago, Westerly said:

Except none of that actually happened. What actually did happen is shit just got more expensive as they just passed the prices off to the consumer. What are you going to, just not use shipping services anymore? Just not buy food anymore? Yea, some companies did optimize to more fuel efficient methods during the age of the $5 gallon of gas and some people sold their SUVs for smaller cars, but in the end what really happened is everyone just paid more money for shit and that was the end of the story. 

Also, last I checked hybrid planes arnt a thing, so guess what $35 jump tickets is still a reality. Also, electric cars are not an end all be all and they are not the future. Electric has substantial limitations. Good luck driving cross country in an electric car. It's risky at best and flat out impossible in some areas. Electric can easily cost more than gas in some areas as well. There used to be free charging stations everywhere. That is long gone. Now you're paying quite a bit for electric charging making the value much less attractive. 

I find it funny that the tree huggers are like 'I got my electric car so I am saving CO2 emissions' but fail to realize the power plant that provides electricity to their 'green' car is powered by fossil fuels....

Shhh... Our Mother of Dirty Oil Church is in session.

[gowlerk 2,217]

1 hour ago, Westerly said:

I was working harder for what was essentially less money because the cost of living was higher. Oh and guess what, gas goes back up to $5 a gallon and here comes $35 jump tickets easy. 

In Canada gas is currently about $1.05/litre including a small but scheduled to rise carbon tax. Jump tickets are......about $35 plus tax! Health insurance is covered by those taxes.

[gowlerk 2,217]

57 minutes ago, billvon said:

but now you don't need that second Keystone pipeline any more.

America has no need for that particular pipeline. And likely never will, that's why there is no real political cost for killing it.

[Phil1111 1,149]

27 minutes ago, billvon said:

Good example!  Wouldn't it be better for the municipality to charge him more for drawing all that water out, so that he uses the water more efficiently?  And so he can no longer afford to take ALL the water?  That way he still gets most of the benefit of having that water there - AND the people downstream are not harmed.

Imagine if that neighbor said "all that matters is that I get that water for as low a cost as I can.  That way I will charge you less for the food I grow in my garden."  Would you buy that argument?  Or would you argue that his taking all the water imposes a hidden cost on you?

That is how water rights work and its both effective and targeted in eliminating water waste. I was directing the comments more at Westerly with regards to the costs of your behaviors on others and unintended consequence. I think that you believe any mechanism that increases oil prices is useful. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

IMO as economies move from oil to carbon free. There should be taxation on oil, read carbon, to finance the transition and simultaneously reflect its overall damages to non users. For low income users of oil rebates of the tax in whole or in part to soften transition costs. For everyone else a carbon tax that moves transitions along. There is no need to place additional cost barriers in that transition.

If the EU can afford $1.70 a liter fuel so can the US and Canada. Other than the transition needs to be phased in and the poor subsidized during the transition. Of course natural gas and electricity need to reflect carbon priced inputs.

[Phil1111 1,149]

38 minutes ago, Westerly said:

Except none of that actually happened. What actually did happen is shit just got more expensive as they just passed the prices off to the consumer. What are you going to, just not use shipping services anymore? Just not buy food anymore? Yea, some companies did optimize to more fuel efficient methods during the age of the $5 gallon of gas and some people sold their SUVs for smaller cars, but in the end what really happened is everyone just paid more money for shit and that was the end of the story. 

Also, last I checked hybrid planes arnt a thing, so guess what $35 jump tickets is still a reality. Also, electric cars are not an end all be all and they are not the future. Electric has substantial limitations. Good luck driving cross country in an electric car. It's risky at best and flat out impossible in some areas. Electric can easily cost more than gas in some areas as well. There used to be free charging stations everywhere. That is long gone. Now you're paying quite a bit for electric charging making the value much less attractive. 

I find it funny that the tree huggers are like 'I got my electric car so I am saving CO2 emissions' but fail to realize the power plant that provides electricity to their 'green' car is powered by fossil fuels....

How do you think the EU competes with America when they pay carbon taxes based upon their Paris accord agreements? You and all the other trump/right wing/coal lovers keep singing the same tune. It costs too much, never will work, bla, bla,bla. Rehashing the same old arguments. Yet in Europe last year Renewable energy surpassed fossil fuels for European electricity in 2020

You do know the US is again a co-signer of that agreement don't you?

[Phil1111 1,149]

12 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

America has no need for that particular pipeline. And likely never will, that's why there is no real political cost for killing it.

That story has not been written yet. Below a list of top oil exporters to the US in 2020.

• Canada56%
• Mexico9%
• Saudi Arabia7%
• Iraq5%
• Colombia5%

and it averages 4,000 bbl a day from Canada

.Below is the US Energy Information Agency

• EIA estimates that U.S. crude oil production fell from the 2019 record level of 12.2 million b/d to 11.3 million b/d in 2020. EIA expects that annual average production will fall to 11.1 million b/d in 2021 before rising to 11.5 million b/d in 2022.

• U.S. liquid fuels consumption in 2020 averaged 18.1 million b/d, down 2.5 million b/d (12%) from 2019 consumption. EIA forecasts U.S. liquid fuels consumption will rise to 19.5 million b/d in 2021 and then to 20.5 million b/d in 2022 (almost equal to the 2019 level).

So the US will need an additional 700,000 BBL. a day of imports this year to meet falling US production.