wmw999 2,447 #26 January 6, 2006 Likewise been there. Likewise stopped the skydive. It was an automatic reaction, and why I don't really consider cutting away first. Either way there are risks. Someone died last year from the Pink Skyvan group because their reserve tangled with their probably in-tow pilot chute, I believe. There is no guarantee of a right answer until you're landing safely. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sky-pimp 0 #27 January 6, 2006 QuoteLikewise been there. Likewise stopped the skydive. It was an automatic reaction, and why I don't really consider cutting away first. da havin a blonde moment , what does stopped the skydive mean .... you cutaway then pulled reserve ??? YeHaaaaaaaaaaa Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #28 January 6, 2006 Quote A two out MIGHT kill you. Landing only a Pilot chute WILL kill you. I like that!!!! MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #29 January 6, 2006 Nope, I just pulled the reserve. Cutting away doesn't stop the skydive. It might be the smartest thing to do when you have a malfunctioning canopy, but it doesn't do anything to make you go slower. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Travman 6 #30 January 7, 2006 You're right, it is a bag lock that stands you up. My mistake. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #31 January 7, 2006 Baglock didn't stand me up. I don't recall ever seeing a video where someone was stood up before the main came out of the D-bag."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #32 January 7, 2006 Line stretch and the bag opening happen simultaneously, so you wouldn't notice. If you watch a video of a bag lock mal you'll see that it does, maybe if the PC is not cocked it would not.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #33 January 7, 2006 Line stretch and the bag opening happen simultaneously, so you wouldn't notice. You would notice on Video in slow motion. If you watch a video of a bag lock mal you'll see that it does, maybe if the PC is not cocked it would not. Please send me a copy of that video. When I cutaway a bag lock the first indication of the malfunction was that I was not being stood up in the harness. Checked over my right shoulder and saw 8' of lines terminating at closed D-bag, Bridal, and Inflated P/C."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #34 January 7, 2006 Apples and oranges guys. Commonly speaking a bag lock happens when the bag closing stows do not release, but all of the other lines have been released. Thus trapping the canopy in the bag. There is enough drag to "stand up a jumper". Samuri136.. Sounds like your burble being stable belly down prevented this from occuring, I am not trying to say you did not have a bag lock, but that you had an unusual bag lock._________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #35 January 8, 2006 A friend of mine years ago was a JM for a level 6 or level 7 AFF. He must have snagged his bag on the Cessna, cuz right after they left his bag comes out. He waves off from the student, and tosses his pc. Nothing happens. So he freefalls belly to earth watching his student (from a reasonable distance away) and then does emergency procedures after that. He said the only thing he felt was a bit of a backslide.... W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #36 January 8, 2006 QuotePlease send me a copy of that video. When I cutaway a bag lock the first indication of the malfunction was that I was not being stood up in the harness. Checked over my right shoulder and saw 8' of lines terminating at closed D-bag, Bridal, and Inflated P/C. There is a commercially available video we used to show students. It had a bag lock on there and it did stand the guy up....He was kinda in a "kneefly" position, but he was not belly to earth. It showed a good 15 seconds and he was sitting up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #37 January 8, 2006 QuoteI don't recall ever seeing a video where someone was stood up before the main came out of the D-bag. Watch "Break-Away" (baglock segment). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #38 January 10, 2006 A pilot chute in tow is a total malfunction. There is nothing to cut away. Pull your reserve. You should be flat with your eyes on the horizon. You do not want to be head-high or head-low. You want the reserve to deploy clean. This is your best option. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #39 May 7, 2006 Very cool video of a bag lock. http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=3811 Interesting that in this case it seemed to stand the jumper up briefly but he got rotated onto his back. Just shows that shit happens, and armchair theory doesn't always cover every scenario. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mbondvegas 0 #40 May 22, 2006 QuoteBuy a pullout rig or a ripcord rig. <<<>>>> Great thread. Lot's of interesting analysis. So what are the main causes of a PC in tow? Are pullouts/puds and ripcords/springloads less prone to PC in tow mals? Why Obviously I could see that a "uncocked' colapsible in you BOC could cause and issue thus increasing the 'risk', but are there other reasons/risks? Thanks.- - - I am not afraid of tomorrow, for I have seen yesterday and I love today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #41 May 22, 2006 So what are the main causes of a PC in tow? Forgot to cock kill line P/C, broken kill line, out of trim kill line, mis-routed bridle preventing the pin from being pulled, and bridal separation from the closing pin."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yossarian 0 #42 May 22, 2006 you dont get a pc in tow on a ripcord/pullout rig because the very act of pulling removes the pin from the closing loop, opening the container and leaving the bag free to emerge, the inflating pilot chute whether springloaded or pullout simply extracts the bag from the already open container rather than having to pull the pin aswell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
damion75 0 #43 May 22, 2006 Quote Forgot to cock kill line P/C, broken kill line, out of trim kill line, mis-routed bridle preventing the pin from being pulled, and bridal separation from the closing pin. Surely a broken kill line would not cause a PC in Tow in itself? The PC would not uncock as the canopy opens since the kill line would not pull the apex of the PC back in, so it would act like a non-collapsible PC but that is all. Or is there something I am missing? Out of trim kill line is quite a different kettle of fish and I fully agree with you on that one, if the kill line has shortened.*************** Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #44 May 22, 2006 >you dont get a pc in tow on a ripcord/pullout rig . . . Martin Evans' wife had a PC in tow malfunction on her pullout rig. An instructor at Brown Field had one as well. It's quite possible; some potential reasons include: -uncocked or porous PC fails to extract bag from tight container -bridle snags on closing loop/closing loop anchor -PC ties itself in a knot (seen that one) However, there's no doubt it reduces the odds of a PC in tow. It also increases the odds of other types of mals, primarily a total. It also has an additional malfunction state - a total with an open container, where the jumper extracts the pin but does not pull the PC into the air enough for a normal deployment. Jumpers considering a pullout should think about their procedures carefully, so they can decide beforehand how to deal with each type of mal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #45 May 22, 2006 QuoteIt also has an additional malfunction state - a total with an open container, where the jumper extracts the pin but does not pull the PC into the air enough for a normal deployment. Wouldn’t this be analogous to a type of Horshoe, the Out of Sequence deployment (D-Bag doesn’t necessarily need to be out of the container)? My understanding of the definition of a Total is that the container is closed, how could the pin be extracted and still be considered a total?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #46 May 22, 2006 >Wouldn’t this be analogous to a type of Horshoe . .. Sorta. You can get this mal with a really tight container, a PC stuffed alongside the D-bag, and a weak pull. The big difference from a horseshoe is that you do NOT have a lot of crap out; nothing has emerged from the container yet. However, reserve opening shock is likely to begin main deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
