More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[mistercwood 287]

8 hours ago, BIGUN said:

No argument, Professor. Hence, the proposal to include cradle-to-grave ownership registration.  

I don't jump into US gun control discussion much because I know what worked for *us* isn't going to work for you guys, at a bare minimum just because of the insane starting number of weapons in circulation.

But I've long thought that registration (and consequent responsibility/accountability) could be one of the most effective measures you could use without stepping on the Second - my understanding though is that this will always be a non-starter right? The word alone always seems to be immediately painted as the first step to confiscation, which is disappointing.

[brenthutch 444]

What is it about Chicago that makes it so prone to gun violence?  If it were just the guns one would think Wisconsin would have the same problem.  We have guns everywhere here in central PA including lots of MSRs (assault rifles to you lefties) yet we have no real issue with gun violence.  

[BIGUN 1,314]

12 hours ago, mistercwood said:

But I've long thought that registration (and consequent responsibility/accountability) could be one of the most effective measures you could use without stepping on the Second - my understanding though is that this will always be a non-starter right? The word alone always seems to be immediately painted as the first step to confiscation, which is disappointing.

You're right. The NRA has painted registration as the evil first step to confiscation - yet they don't seem to recognize every gun manufactured is registered and every gun sold goes thru a wholesaler (registered) and dealer (Registered) and when sold a "Yellow Sheet" (ATF Form 4473) to the end-buyer. Then it gets lost. 

If we had cradle-to-grave registration (not unlike vehicles) WITH those guns not voluntarily registered were confiscated and smelted (during the commission of a crime) eventually, over ten-twenty years, there would be a significantly less number of weapons on the street. Some would say, that's not good enough - "NOW!" But, imagine how far along we'd be if it had started almost twenty years ago when we first started having these conversations. 

I'm also in favor of a 10X rule - use a gun during the commission of a crime = automatic 10 years added with no parole.  

[brenthutch 444]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

I'm also in favor of a 10X rule - use a gun during the commission of a crime = automatic 10 years added with no parole.  

That is racist 

[BIGUN 1,314]

29 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

That is racist 

The 1994 Crime Bill (Clinton) had stiffer penalties for using a weapon during the commission of a crime. Most blacks supported the Clinton crime bill. A Gallup survey in 1994 found that Hispanic and Black citizens favored it to a greater degree than white citizens, 58 percent compared with 49 percent. 

African Americans are consistently more likely to be concerned about crime than white Americans. They also are the staunchest supporters of tougher gun-control laws and penalties for crimes with guns. 

 

[brenthutch 444]

12 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

The 1994 Crime Bill (Clinton) had stiffer penalties for using a weapon during the commission of a crime. Most blacks supported the Clinton crime bill. A Gallup survey in 1994 found that Hispanic and Black citizens favored it to a greater degree than white citizens, 58 percent compared with 49 percent. 

African Americans are consistently more likely to be concerned about crime than white Americans. They also are the staunchest supporters of tougher gun-control laws and penalties for crimes with guns. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/oct/17/joe-biden-race-crime-bill-1994-policing

“The 1994 crime bill paved the way to mass incarceration of Black Americans. Biden says his support was a ‘mistake’”

What you are suggesting is 1994 all over again.

[jimjumper 25]

Just for info, the current LA County DA was elected on making it a policy to eliminate "enhanced sentencing" policies of all types. He was overwhelmingly supported by the Black community although, he is currently being sued by his own  Asst. DA's and is also facing a recall election. 

[BIGUN 1,314]

8 hours ago, brenthutch said:

“The 1994 crime bill paved the way to mass incarceration of Black Americans. Biden says his support was a ‘mistake’”

You didn't even read your own source citation.

 

8 hours ago, brenthutch said:

What you are suggesting is 1994 all over again.

Not at all - read the proposal. 

[mistercwood 287]

11 hours ago, BIGUN said:

I'm also in favor of a 10X rule - use a gun during the commission of a crime = automatic 10 years added with no parole.  

I'm not sure I can get on board with this part, but I'm also (generally) opposed to mandatory sentences that go to immediate extremes anyway, i.e. 3 strikes laws etc.

Because while I agree that there needs to be a significant enough deterrent to scare people away from using weapons in a crime to start with, my concern is the real-world effect being that crims escalate the severity of a crime more easily - if you're going to take a gun with you and risk the extra 10 years, aren't you more likely to then actually use it because hey, you're already on the hook for the 10, how much difference is a murder sentence really going to make now?

If there's judicial discretion I think you can still get most of the deterrent effect, but with less escalation risk.

 

[BIGUN 1,314]

12 hours ago, mistercwood said:

I'm not sure I can get on board with this part, but I'm also (generally) opposed to mandatory sentences that go to immediate extremes anyway,

Somebody sticks a gun in your daughter or wife's face, says they're going to kill them, to bend over so they can fuck them in the ass, rape them and then sodomize them.

What. You go buy them a Happy meal? 

[Phil1111 1,149]

19 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

... fuck them in the ass, rape them and then sodomize them.

...

Technically they are all the same are they not?

The problem with very harsh sentencing is that they attempt to use logic on people that are not deterred by it.

Somewhere up the supply chain of the weapons would likely be deterred if certainty of prison was given. I like the rest of your thinking.

[BIGUN 1,314]

10 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

The problem with very harsh sentencing i

I'm not lookin to deter crime - I'm lookin to protect others from those that would do it again. 

[kallend 2,027]

25 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

Technically they are all the same are they not?

The problem with very harsh sentencing is that they attempt to use logic on people that are not deterred by it.

Somewhere up the supply chain of the weapons would likely be deterred if certainty of prison was given. I like the rest of your thinking.

The supplier of illegal weapons should be treated as accessories to any crime(s) committed with said weapons.

[gowlerk 2,193]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Somebody sticks a gun in your daughter or wife's face, says they're going to kill them, to bend over so they can fuck them in the ass, rape them and then sodomize them.

What. You go buy them a Happy meal? 

How is using a gun instead of a knife or brute force going to make your daughter feel worse? That would be a brutal crime with a lengthy sentence, the gun is rather irrelevant. 

[BIGUN 1,314]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

How is using a gun instead of a knife or brute force going to make your daughter feel worse? That would be a brutal crime with a lengthy sentence, the gun is rather irrelevant. 

Without the gun; there is a fighting chance. 

[JoeWeber 2,720]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

How is using a gun instead of a knife or brute force going to make your daughter feel worse? That would be a brutal crime with a lengthy sentence, the gun is rather irrelevant. 

Well done, Norseman, in your endless effort to take a counter position you can now add opposition to gun laws to your resume.

[mistercwood 287]

10 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Somebody sticks a gun in your daughter or wife's face, says they're going to kill them, to bend over so they can fuck them in the ass, rape them and then sodomize them.

What. You go buy them a Happy meal? 

I don't know how you got there from what I wrote. My opposition to mandatory sentencing is that it allows zero leeway in sentencing to someone who is at the exact opposite spectrum of your example. I have no opposition at all to judiciary's being able to hand down extremely lengthy sentences in and of themselves.

[gowlerk 2,193]

6 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Well done, Norseman, in your endless effort to take a counter position you can now add opposition to gun laws to your resume.

I mostly just have a problem with over dramatic daughter ass raping scenario being used as an example. As if that is the average gun crime instead of the reality that most of the violence is just idiots losing their temper and reaching for their sidearm when someone cuts them of on the road.

[BIGUN 1,314]

24 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

over dramatic daughter ass raping scenario being used as an example.

Every sixteen hours a woman is shot dead by their ex or current partner. ~Brady United. 

[BIGUN 1,314]

36 minutes ago, mistercwood said:

I don't know how you got there from what I wrote

When you said, "I'm not sure I can get on board with this part." I'm for putting animals that attack in cages.  EDIT: For long periods of time to protect society. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by BIGUN

[jakee 1,489]

11 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Somebody sticks a gun in your daughter or wife's face, says they're going to kill them, to bend over so they can fuck them in the ass, rape them and then sodomize them.

What. You go buy them a Happy meal? 

Come on man. You were doing so well being reasonable lately then you go and say something as unbelievably stupid as this.

 

You know this scenario is not in anyway a justification for imposing long mandatory sentences for the possession of a gun during any type of crime.

[Phil1111 1,149]

9 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Every sixteen hours a woman is shot dead by their ex or current partner. ~Brady United. 

Japan "The man alleged to have wounded 10 people in a knife attack on a Tokyo commuter train late on Friday told police he became incensed when he saw women who "looked happy" and wanted to kill them, Japanese media reported on Saturday."

In the US with the ready availability of guns there would have been at least 10 dead.

"The Sankei newspaper reported that suspect told police: "I began feeling like I wanted to kill women who looked happy about six years ago. Anyone was fine, I just wanted to kill a lot of people."

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 minute ago, jakee said:

Come on man. You were doing so well being reasonable lately then you go and say something as unbelievably stupid as this.

 

You know this scenario is not in anyway a justification for imposing long mandatory sentences for the possession of a gun during any type of crime.

When BIGUN imagines crimes against his family he tends to lose it a bit.

[BIGUN 1,314]

1 minute ago, Phil1111 said:

crimes against his family

Really against anyone's family, Phil. 

[billvon 2,991]

11 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Somebody sticks a gun in your daughter or wife's face, says they're going to kill them, to bend over so they can fuck them in the ass, rape them and then sodomize them.

What. You go buy them a Happy meal? 

How about - give them life in prison?  What's wrong with that?