More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[billeisele 130]

18 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Nah, you just need some common sense.

lol - No, according to the "rules" it's your responsibility to provide a citation. 

Wendy and others would seem to be correct with their common sense that avoidance is the best option. The "seem to be" allows that statement since it's clearly an opinion.

Some might say that the bells are bad since they could be a signaling device saying, "dinner is over here." Most experts would say that the bears want to avoid humans so bells are good. IMO.

The discussion on various firearms and calibers is interesting. I'd go for all the options: avoidance, spray and the best I can do is a .357. I could carry the Redhawk .44 mag but the 7.5" barrel and 4X scope would make it rather unwieldy.

While there's no specific proof, it's been said that the best option is to hike with someone else. Preferable someone you don't have strong feelings for and someone that runs slower than you. Might be good for them to wear the bells, "I'm running, follow me."

[Phil1111 1,149]

Talk about thread drift!. OK I'll indulge. In Sydney Australia a UK diving instructor was just killed by a great white shark. While training for a charity swim this obviously empathetic animal loving man:

Had no chance to defend himself as Australia has banned AR-15s Had he not been stripped of his rights to self defense. That tragedy could have been averted. Look at America! Few great white shark attacks, lots of AR-15s.

[billvon 2,989]

2 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Had no chance to defend himself as Australia has banned AR-15s Had he not been stripped of his rights to self defense. That tragedy could have been averted. Look at America! Few great white shark attacks, lots of AR-15s.

Just as you need semiautomatic weapons with large magazines to fend off 30-50 attacking feral hogs, so you also need waterproof large-caliber assault weapons to protect yourself against a group of liberal sharks intent on depriving you of your rights.  (What's a group of sharks called?  A school?  A murder?  Yeah, I know murder applies to crows but it should also be an option for sharks.)

[SkyDekker 1,465]

16 hours ago, winsor said:

While getting shot likely ended any potential or active attack, Brown bears reportedly respond to injury by attacking - and Browns are much bigger and tougher than Blacks.

I am assuming that when you mentioned Brown bears you are referring to Grizzly bears. Just so people know, you cannot always tell the difference between black and grizzly (brown) bears by colour. Black bears come in many different shades, including brown and "white".

[SkyDekker 1,465]

6 hours ago, billeisele said:

lol - No, according to the "rules" it's your responsibility to provide a citation. 

Sure, just take the original posting. Man encounters black bear, which really has almost no risk associated with it. He fumbles loading a firearm, kills his brother and ends up killing himself. Two humans dead, bear alive.

Bear spray would have deterred the bear and two humans are still alive. Little stern talking and waiving of the arms would have likely done the same thing.

Black bear attacks are exceedingly rare.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

6 hours ago, billeisele said:

The discussion on various firearms and calibers is interesting. I'd go for all the options: avoidance, spray and the best I can do is a .357. I could carry the Redhawk .44 mag but the 7.5" barrel and 4X scope would make it rather unwieldy.

We can't bring revolvers into the woods, or most places really. So none of those work. Most people here who carry into the deep woods tend to like shotguns with alternating shot and slug. But, as always lots of debate around what might be best....after bear spray

[winsor 236]

40 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

I am assuming that when you mentioned Brown bears you are referring to Grizzly bears. Just so people know, you cannot always tell the difference between black and grizzly (brown) bears by colour. Black bears come in many different shades, including brown and "white".

I'm quite familiar.

Browns include Grizzlies, Kodiaks and generic Browns, depending on the location.

As mentioned, a Black Bear was scrounging for food and I yelled at it.  It went away.

Browns I've observed in the wild, and do my best to avoid.  They are remarkably fast, notoriously tough, and generally kinda cranky.

If one was charging and close enough that I'd even consider shooting it, the bear spray only pissed this one off, I'd want my .460 Weatherby, and it probably wouldn't do me any good at that point.

SWATing aside, armed confrontation isn't my bag.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

15 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Don't run out of ammo.

Don't try to reload when your ass is on the line. 

Hi Keith,

If you want to read on why not, try this book:  

The Newhall Shooting - A Tactical Analysis by Mike Wood (revolverguy.com)

Newhall incident - Wikipedia

Jerry Baumchen

 

[JoeWeber 2,720]

15 hours ago, winsor said:

A classic stopper is a large bore double gun.  No chance of jamming on the follow up shot.

If you ever have to resort to lethal force, make certain that you are very well trained in the use of the particular implement.  A solid hit with a .22 is infinitely better than 6 misses with a .44 - someone reportedly dropped a Kodiak bear with a lucky shot from a 4 3/4" Ruger Mark I (followed the optic nerve to the brain).

Having said that, in another case a seasoned guide was killed by a Kodiak that he had just shot fatally with a .458 WM.  The last thing the bear did was to swat the guide while he was chambering another round.

Having seen Grizzlies in the wild, I am fine with doing everything I can to avoid drawing their attention.  They don't get that big by missing many meals, and I doubt if they'd pass me up for lack of condiments.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

Winsor, in a few posts you claim a hope to have your .460 Weatherby, though it might be worthless. Do those come in double bore? Is that what you have? I thought they were bolt action rifles. I don't disagree that a double bore is more reliable for two shots but that's it. I say that as someone who hunted ducks for years with a single shot and took my share of doubles. I think a modern tactical semi-auto shot gun is reliable enough to be a better choice, seems to me.

[brenthutch 441]

19 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

I say that as someone who hunted ducks for years with a single shot and took my share of doubles. I think a modern tactical semi-auto shot gun is reliable enough to be a better choice, seems to me.

In high school I used to hunt pheasants with my 20 gauge H&R single shot. I would carry a second round between my middle and ring finger of my right hand and would get doubles (I would like to say “routinely” but that would be a lie) 

With regard to semi-auto, I agree with Joe.  In shooting sports, as well as skydiving, the “old school” way of thinking has a way of sticking around for a lot longer than it’s actual efficacy.   Modern, well maintained semi-autos are 99.99% reliable.

 

[raftman 12]

15 hours ago, brenthutch said:

In high school I used to hunt pheasants with my 20 gauge H&R single shot. I would carry a second round between my middle and ring finger of my right hand and would get doubles (I would like to say “routinely” but that would be a lie) 

With regard to semi-auto, I agree with Joe.  In shooting sports, as well as skydiving, the “old school” way of thinking has a way of sticking around for a lot longer than it’s actual efficacy.   Modern, well maintained semi-autos are 99.99% reliable.

 

I always heard the best weapon to be used in a bear attack is a small caliber pistol.

You use it to shoot your hiking/hunting/camping partner in the leg, then make your escape!

[winsor 236]

2 hours ago, raftman said:

I always heard the best weapon to be used in a bear attack is a small caliber pistol.

You use it to shoot your hiking/hunting/camping partner in the leg, then make your escape!

Since bears aren't crazy about fire, a flame thrower would be my first choice.

Since the only reason I would go up against a bear would be to stop a very real attack, one of the novelty butane flame throwers would likely be as good as anything.  The variant using petrol and M-4 thickener would cause hideous burns, which would be inhumane whether or not it still managed to kill me.

Since a wounded Brown bear is likely to attack whatever it thinks caused it pain, shooting it would be my last choice.  Having a face full of flame is more likely to freak it out and have it go to Plan B forthwith.

Again, I don't begrudge the animal for wanting an easy meal, I simply don't wish to qualify as such.  

If in an area with a high fire danger, a bear spray projector / 140 dB air horn would likely be the best approach.

All this is academic, since your basic Brown bear is very fast (by my standards).  I was in grade school when I watched Brown bears romping in Yellowstone, and it hit me that I couldn't outrun one of them on my bicycle with a head start.  They have my profound respect, and I am pleased to have avoided any close encounters with them.

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[gowlerk 2,190]

6 minutes ago, winsor said:

Since bears aren't crazy about fire, a flame thrower would be my first choice.

More than a little impractical, but what the hell? I wonder if they are "arms" under the 2nd?

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

3 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

More than a little impractical, but what the hell? I wonder if they are "arms" under the 2nd?

Not according to the BATF.

Even the 'good' ones that shoot napalm aren't classified as 'weapons.'

Really.

[BIGUN 1,296]

3 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Not according to the BATF.

Even the 'good' ones that shoot napalm aren't classified as 'weapons.'

Continue. [& expand]

Edited February 19, 2022 by BIGUN

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

20 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Continue. [& expand]

Well, the 'good ones' are the old military ones from World War 2. The tanks on the back hold the fuel. They shoot a stream of napalm (jellied gasoline) and are both very brutal and cool as all hell.

Since they don't explode, or launch a projectile (the gas doesn't qualify as one, I guess), they don't fall under the BATF's jurisdiction.

I don't pretend to fully understand it, but that's the way the rules read.

To see what one looks like in action, this scene is pretty good (and really fun):

And as far as using a gun on a bear, I'd not want to try it.

First off, a pistol large enough to have much hope of stopping a bear is going to be big. Really big. Your suggestion of a 44 mag or 454 Casull isn't bad. But a 500S&W or 475S&W would be a better choice.

The problem is that those pistols (all of them) are really heavy. Packing one 'just in case' will get old fast

And they're expensive. Both the gun and the ammunition.

Pistols are not easy to use. It takes a LOT of practice (the comment about the scene from Pulp Fiction is spot on). The big pistols aren't terribly 'fun' to shoot. Not unless you're into pain. I've shot a 500 once (two shots). The recoil is brutal. 

To be able to accurately shoot while facing a charging bear is not something many people will be able to do. 
The paradox is that the average person won't be able to hit a vital area until the bear is so close that it won't die before it reaches (and kills) you.
Too far away, you miss. Too close and you don't stop it in time. 

I've never been in real 'bear country' myself, but I've talked to people that have spent a good bit of time there.

Avoidance is key. Realizing they are there before they get anywhere near you is the best choice. Surprising a bear isn't a good thing to do.

 

Pistols are generally a 'comfort' item. They make you feel better, but aren't much use.

If one is expecting an encounter, then pay the weight penalty and carry a decent rifle or shotgun. 12 mag slugs are adequate. 'Large bore' rifles are pretty good too. The 45-70 is an old cartridge, and SAMMI spec is low powered enough to be safe to shoot in old Trapdoor Springfields (the rifles that got Custer and his men killed). Modern actions can take a lot more pressure, and there are published handloads that can be shot in the Marlin lever action or Ruger single shot. Those approach 458 Win Mag energy levels (depending on bullet choice).  
I've shot a hot 45-70 out of a Guide Gun. It was a lot of recoil, but not painful. I was able to hit a 12" steel circle from 50 yards, open sights and standing (standing lets one rock back with the recoil - lots better than from a bench).
If I was going somewhere that there was a real chance of encountering a large bear, I'd take one of those.

[BIGUN 1,296]

15 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Since they don't explode, or launch a projectile (the gas doesn't qualify as one, I guess), they don't fall under the BATF's jurisdiction.

True, for now. There are two states (CA & MD) that have knee-jerked to Elon's Boring Co. Flame Throwers and have used the Title 10 CH 44 language of "Dangerous Devices" and are illegal in those states. Other states have written up legislation, but to my knowledge that's as far as it's gotten.

w/r/t weapons - your choice. 

There's a grizzly stuffed at the Million Dollar saloon in Jackson Hole, WY that was killed by a man using his teeth. Keep up on your dental work also.    

Edited February 20, 2022 by BIGUN

[wmw999 2,439]

37 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

There's a grizzly stuffed at the Million Dollar saloon in Jackson Hole, WY that was killed by a man using his teeth. Keep up on your dental work also.

You WOULD know that . Awesome!

Wendy P. 

[DougH 270]

16 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

But a 500S&W or 475S&W would be a better choice.

You mean 460 S&W?

16 hours ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Pistols are not easy to use. It takes a LOT of practice (the comment about the scene from Pulp Fiction is spot on). The big pistols aren't terribly 'fun' to shoot. Not unless you're into pain. I've shot a 500 once (two shots). The recoil is brutal. 

It is way more fun to watch OTHER people shoot my S&W 460 revolver if it is loaded with a 460 S&W magnum. 

I wouldn't enjoy hiking around with it! Thankfully I live in black bear territory and not being a complete idiot is your best defense against black bears.

[billeisele 130]

2 hours ago, DougH said:

 and not being a complete idiot is your best defense against black bears.

Are you saying to: Wear or not wear one of those dinner bells?

[billeisele 130]

On 2/17/2022 at 12:29 PM, SkyDekker said:

We can't bring revolvers into the woods, or most places really. So none of those work. Most people here who carry into the deep woods tend to like shotguns with alternating shot and slug. But, as always lots of debate around what might be best....after bear spray

No surprise. There is a constant debate in SC about calibers for white tail deer. Folks use everything from 243 to 338 magnum, and probably larger. The 270 peeps used to be picked on the most. Now it's the 6.5 Creedmoor.

[gowlerk 2,190]

1 hour ago, billeisele said:

Are you saying to: Wear or not wear one of those dinner bells?

Around here first nations women picking wild blueberries wear bells to alert the bears. I'm pretty sure they know what they are doing. But there are no grizzlies in the area. 

Edited February 20, 2022 by gowlerk

[Phil1111 1,149]

Bear Attack Fatalities Are Up This Year

Its estimated that there are 26,000 grizzly bears in Canada and another 16,000 polar bears. Plus another 1/2 million black bears. With about 38 million homo sapiens to potentially feed upon.

You're not allowed to carry handguns in the wild for protection in Canada. While there is probably 10,000 bears killed by hunters per year. 99.9 percent of travelers in the wild in Canada don't have spray, guns or bells.

Bears that act stupid or aggressive don't last long.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

10 hours ago, DougH said:

You mean 460 S&W?

It is way more fun to watYup.ch OTHER people shoot my S&W 460 revolver if it is loaded with a 460 S&W magnum. 

I wouldn't enjoy hiking around with it! Thankfully I live in black bear territory and not being a complete idiot is your best defense against black bears.

Yup. Got it confused with the 475 Linebaugh. The 'super duper big' pistol calibers aren't my thing. 
Thank you for the correction.

 

One of the really fun things about being a range officer (at the local 'club' range) is seeing what people bring down.

Lots of shooters offer to let me try a couple shots. I've never said 'no', but I have said 'not again'. 

 

I've also seen mean boyfriends hand their girlfriend, who clearly hasn't shot before, a gun way beyond her capability. 

I've annoyed more than one dude like that by asking the girl if she's ever shot that before (no) or if she's ever seen it fired before (also no). 

I then suggest she watch him shoot it before she tries it. That usually gets a resentful look from the guy, and a grateful look from the girl once she sees how much power and recoil it has.
I've then annoyed the dude even more by handing the girl a loaded magazine for a 22 pistol, giving her a quick lesson in operating it and letting her shoot. 
After shooting it the first time and realizing how mild it is, she then enjoys herself shooting the rest of the shots.

[brenthutch 441]

On 2/19/2022 at 4:40 PM, wolfriverjoe said:

Well, the 'good ones' are the old military ones from World War 2. The tanks on the back hold the fuel. They shoot a stream of napalm (jellied gasoline) and are both very brutal and cool as all hell.

Since they don't explode, or launch a projectile (the gas doesn't qualify as one, I guess), they don't fall under the BATF's jurisdiction.

I don't pretend to fully understand it, but that's the way the rules read.

To see what one looks like in action, this scene is pretty good (and really fun):

And as far as using a gun on a bear, I'd not want to try it.

First off, a pistol large enough to have much hope of stopping a bear is going to be big. Really big. Your suggestion of a 44 mag or 454 Casull isn't bad. But a 500S&W or 475S&W would be a better choice.

The problem is that those pistols (all of them) are really heavy. Packing one 'just in case' will get old fast

And they're expensive. Both the gun and the ammunition.

Pistols are not easy to use. It takes a LOT of practice (the comment about the scene from Pulp Fiction is spot on). The big pistols aren't terribly 'fun' to shoot. Not unless you're into pain. I've shot a 500 once (two shots). The recoil is brutal. 

To be able to accurately shoot while facing a charging bear is not something many people will be able to do. 
The paradox is that the average person won't be able to hit a vital area until the bear is so close that it won't die before it reaches (and kills) you.
Too far away, you miss. Too close and you don't stop it in time. 

I've never been in real 'bear country' myself, but I've talked to people that have spent a good bit of time there.

Avoidance is key. Realizing they are there before they get anywhere near you is the best choice. Surprising a bear isn't a good thing to do.

 

Pistols are generally a 'comfort' item. They make you feel better, but aren't much use.

If one is expecting an encounter, then pay the weight penalty and carry a decent rifle or shotgun. 12 mag slugs are adequate. 'Large bore' rifles are pretty good too. The 45-70 is an old cartridge, and SAMMI spec is low powered enough to be safe to shoot in old Trapdoor Springfields (the rifles that got Custer and his men killed). Modern actions can take a lot more pressure, and there are published handloads that can be shot in the Marlin lever action or Ruger single shot. Those approach 458 Win Mag energy levels (depending on bullet choice).  
I've shot a hot 45-70 out of a Guide Gun. It was a lot of recoil, but not painful. I was able to hit a 12" steel circle from 50 yards, open sights and standing (standing lets one rock back with the recoil - lots better than from a bench).
If I was going somewhere that there was a real chance of encountering a large bear, I'd take one of those.

A short barrel AR in .50 Beowulf would be a good choice. More than double the energy of a .44 magnum, more accurate and easier to handle than a pistol and if the first round doesn’t get the job done, you have 19 more.