More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[jakee 1,554]

10 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

TSA. 3 million people per day. 

Campus Police - Only those who are not students. 

Not hard. 

Also, there are about 75 Million school kids in the USA and, um, how many schools vs how many TSA controlled airports? So maybe… hard?

It also completely sidesteps the point. So you have TSA controls screening every single person going in and out of every single school in the US plus all the other security features, patrols and razor wire fences that stop people getting into airports around every single school in the US.

Once you’ve done that, will you look at the result and think “yes, this is good now. This is how it should be”?

Edited June 26, 2024 by jakee

[BIGUN 1,374]

1 minute ago, jakee said:

You’re ok with students killing students, then?

Yeah. Jakee of course I am. See, this is why I block you at times - not contributing solutions, looking for bits and pieces of what people post just to keep it going in an ongoing circular loop. Setting up for the spike. Just add to the conversation, man.  

[gowlerk 2,241]

12 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

You're mistaken - that is EXACTLY their job and if they can't do it, then don't put on the pretty blue uniform. 

Actually, it is you that is mistaken and it is well established law. LEOs are not hired to or required to lay their lives on the line. And they do all they can to avoid doing so as a general rule.

[jakee 1,554]

40 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Yeah. Jakee of course I am. See, this is why I block you at times - not contributing solutions, looking for bits and pieces of what people post just to keep it going in an ongoing circular loop. Setting up for the spike. Just add to the conversation, man.  

So why do you want to search only people who aren’t students See this is why we keep having these disagreements - because at the first sign of any problem with your position you stop being honest.

Even what you claim is your problem with me isn’t genuine. What circle am I going in? I don’t think armed security covering every entrance to every school searching every person who goes in is a desirable or even acceptable solution. That’s as straight as it gets. Meanwhile you’re dancing around all over the place.

Edited June 26, 2024 by jakee

[normiss 840]

59 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

TSA. 3 million people per day. 

Campus Police - Only those who are not students. 

Not hard. 

I hate that American society is ok with having to raise our kids in military/prison environments.

We're teaching active shooter response and battlefield emergency medical procedures. To children.

They are being required to cross a military battle hardened perimeter to gain access to a prison type environment.

I hope we're happy with the long term effects.

Hopefully they won't feel the need for a Hamas type protection of their own. (insert tongue in cheek)

I have friends moving due to the current crime/police/school environments their kids are facing.

I would not want to raise kids in the America we have now. I hate that my kids are having to.

I sometimes don't recognize the country I grew up in.

[BIGUN 1,374]

29 minutes ago, normiss said:

I hate that American society is ok with having to raise our kids in military/prison environments.

We're teaching active shooter response and battlefield emergency medical procedures. To children.

They are being required to cross a military battle hardened perimeter to gain access to a prison type environment.

No argument, Brother. It's a knee-jerk reaction to the core problem of not having responsible gun laws. There were gun laws when we were growing up. It's changed a lot since 2008. There are ways to pass those laws and even SCOTUS laid out the blueprint, but no one is acting on it.   

[JoeWeber 2,800]

Just now, BIGUN said:

No argument, Brother. It's a knee-jerk reaction to the core problem of not having responsible gun laws. There were gun laws when we were growing up. It's changed a lot since 2008. There are ways to pass those laws and even SCOTUS laid out the blueprint, but no one is acting on it.   

I'll state it again, we do not need SCOTUS to think for us: if you have an AR-15 or similarly useless pretend Army gun, be a part of the solution and ditch it. Save the arguments, save the drawn out interpretations, save it all and just look at the pictures of some kids murdered with those stupid weapons and know you did the right thing.

[jakee 1,554]

59 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

There are ways to pass those laws and even SCOTUS laid out the blueprint, but no one is acting on it.   

Just too damn many self proclaimed moderates who refuse to vote for anyone who doesn't have an R after their name. Who'd have ever thought that votes have consequences?

[billvon 3,057]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

TSA. 3 million people per day.

Right.  And the TSA costs $5.3 billion a year.  There are ~80 million kids in US schools, so scaling linearly you're looking at $141 billion a year.  That's about $1000 additional cost per taxpayer in the US.

[BIGUN 1,374]

26 minutes ago, billvon said:

That's about $1000 additional cost per taxpayer in the US.

Deal. 

[BIGUN 1,374]

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

I'll state it again, we do not need SCOTUS to think for us:

Not to think for us. They gave us a blueprint of what would legally pass. We don't do that. If the NFA is legal; why not put all weapons under a revised NFA?

2 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

if you have an AR-15 or similarly useless pretend Army gun, be a part of the solution and ditch it.

And, how's that worked so far?  I have none. Zero. I have nothing that even resembles a military style weapon. Sporting rifles and shotguns. 

[JoeWeber 2,800]

Just now, BIGUN said:

Not to think for us. They gave us a blueprint of what would legally pass. We don't do that. If the NFA is legal; why not put all weapons under a revised NFA?

And, how's that worked so far?  I have none. Zero. I have nothing that even resembles a military style weapon. Sporting rifles and shotguns. 

Do your buddies have them?

[BIGUN 1,374]

7 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

Do your buddies have them?

You know they do. Probably 90% of my friends are combat vets from one, two or three wars. They were trained on it, they've seen what an AR platform rifle can do and in many cases have used it on the enemy. But, they are also law-abiding. 

[jakee 1,554]

12 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Deal. 

Why? You want to spend $1000 per person per year to make the lives of every student in the country measurably worse… instead of actually doing anything about the underlying problems. And it will be a trade off. I happen to increasingly believe that government money is actually functionally unlimited when they want it to be, but the people making decisions will annoyingly continue to claim it has to be spent on one thing or another. With that in mind, check this out. 
 

For example, 58% of perpetrators had a connection to the school, 70% were White males, 73 to 80% obtained guns from home or relatives or friends, and 100% exhibited warning signs or showed behavior that was of cause for concern; also, in 77% of school shootings, at least one person knew about the shooter’s plan before the shooting events occurred.

Do you think there are some useful avenues that could be explored with that in mind? Sorry, no. You spent that money on a million rent-a-cops instead. But y’know, good rent-a-cops who’ll put their lives on the line, not bad ones like in Uvalde. We’ll guarantee that. Somehow. (BTW, do TSA screeners at the airport carry guns? I don’t think so. So you’ll have to seriously inflate the TSA budget comparison all over again to account for needing security guards who will be able to do anything if an armed person does turn up.)

So here’s the thing - your plan is stupid. You know full well it’s stupid. But through your stubbornness and pig headedness you’ll plow straight through any objection anyone raises without even stressing it because you value your simplistic feel good factor over anything that will actually save lives in the long run. So when do you plan to get serious? When do you plan to add anything of value to the conversation? 
 

As an aside, the US is the most heavily policed developed nation in the world, with one of the worst violent crime records, yet your answer to everything is always to add more cops. When are you going to take the hint? I saw a YouTube video of a police stop where they’d been notified that a burglar was escaping in a certain suburban area, so this cop decided to help by detaining, handcuffing and running the ID of the first black jogger he saw. Then another cop car turned up to see if he needed backup, and stayed. Then another cop car with a supervisor came to check, and stayed. Then another…. before they’d finished forensically checking his ID and background there were at least 9 patrol cars and somewhere between 10 to 18 cops all milling around protecting each other from this one handcuffed black jogger. He’d been nothing but calm, polite and cooperative, but eventually had to say something like “I’m starting to get really freaked out by the amount of firepower y’all have got gathered around me”. To which the cop said “well we’ve got reports of a burglar escaping so you understand we have to do everything we can to make sure we get him before he gets away!” Now I don’t think I have to explain the blindingly obvious fact that not a single one of those responding officers after cop 1 was doing a single thing to search for a suspect. He could have been sat on the next street corner laughing at them and been perfectly safe. But at the next town council meeting it’ll be “Mrs Miggins’ house was burgled, we told the police exactly where he ran off too and they still didn’t have enough people to find him, we need to invest in more cops!” Right.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9388351/

 

Edited June 27, 2024 by jakee

[BIGUN 1,374]

16 minutes ago, jakee said:

So here’s the thing - your plan is stupid. You know full well it’s stupid. But through your stubbornness and pig headedness you’ll plow straight through any objection anyone raises without even stressing it because you value your simplistic feel good factor over anything that will actually save lives in the long run. So when do you plan to get serious? When do you plan to add anything of value to the conversation? 

I spent fucking days developing the Gun Responsibility Bill before this thread was developed about five years ago. I replaced it in this thread. I've spent hours encouraging my friends on both sides of the aisle to send it to their representatives. I even made it easy by suggesting the NFA be used for all weapons since it seems to be lawful since no one has taken it to court. That's how I got serious.  In light of the lack of gun responsibility laws enacted to minimize the shootings, then our only recourse is providing security measures. 

Now, I don't know if you're close enough to the line for a ban, but you're passed my line for being blocked. Done.  

[lippy 918]

39 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Now, I don't know if you're close enough to the line for a ban, but you're passed my line for being blocked. Done.  

I think he's skirting the line by not attacking you but rather 'your plan'....still came across as extraordinarily dickish though (not Jakee, just 'his post').

[BIGUN 1,374]

20 minutes ago, lippy said:

I think he's skirting the line by not attacking you but rather 'your plan'

That's his M.O. He doesn't add or contribute. He tears down. He didn't say - that's a good plan (like others), but here's some things to consider making it better (like others). All he does is pull some one line from somebody's post and hollers, "Gotchya!!" 

20 minutes ago, lippy said:

still came across as extraordinarily dickish

I'm just done with it and have blocked him.  

Edited June 27, 2024 by BIGUN

[kallend 2,098]

14 hours ago, billvon said:

Right.  And the TSA costs $5.3 billion a year.  There are ~80 million kids in US schools, so scaling linearly you're looking at $141 billion a year.  That's about $1000 additional cost per taxpayer in the US.

But tax cuts for the wealthy.

[kallend 2,098]

38 minutes ago, lippy said:

I think he's skirting the line by not attacking you but rather 'your plan'....still came across as extraordinarily dickish though (not Jakee, just 'his post').

 Sometimes the truth is dickish.

[jakee 1,554]

49 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

That's his M.O. He doesn't add or contribute. He tears down. He didn't say - that's a good plan (like others),

It’s not a good plan. ‘Fixing’ school shootings by turning every school into an airport security zone is a stupid plan, and one that would stop any good plans being enacted through sheer drain on resources. Do you want me to praise something that’s stupid just to avoid your feelings being hurt? 

No you don’t, you’re again just using your faux outrage as an excuse to avoid discussing any of the issues I raised, because you really don’t actually care about any of them.

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Now, I don't know if you're close enough to the line for a ban, but you're passed my line for being blocked. Done.  

What could you possibly think I said that would be ban worthy? You want to see someone stepping over the ban line then you should check out this guy. 

 

[gowlerk 2,241]

2 hours ago, jakee said:

But through your stubbornness and pig headedness you’ll plow straight through any objection anyone raises without even stressing it because you value your simplistic feel good factor over anything that will actually save lives in the long run. So when do you plan to get serious? When do you plan to add anything of value to the conversation? 

Somehow you think this is useful and not a PA?

[billvon 3,057]

3 hours ago, lippy said:

I think he's skirting the line by not attacking you but rather 'your plan'.

Attacking the plan is fine.  "Stubborn" and "pigheaded" is not.

[JoeWeber 2,800]

5 hours ago, BIGUN said:

You know they do. Probably 90% of my friends are combat vets from one, two or three wars. They were trained on it, they've seen what an AR platform rifle can do and in many cases have used it on the enemy. But, they are also law-abiding. 

Of course I did. May I ask what they use them for? They are junk for hunting and, in my opinion, home defense. Also, the verdict is in and Kyle Rittenhouse is also law abiding as are every other vigilante and school and concert shooter still waiting their turn. To be direct, the law abiding trope is beyond tedious at this stage. If we are going to accept that every trained vet should be exempt from giving up pretend war weapons (now with bump stocks allowed), as you just did, the numbers alone defeat any chance at serious gun control. That's not really moderate from a societal perspective, seems to me.

[BIGUN 1,374]

23 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

They are junk for hunting

177,000+ in the last war would disagree with you - if they could. 

 

24 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

To be direct, the law abiding trope is beyond tedious at this stage.

That law-abiding trope is what makes the difference between chaos & order. To be direct, I'm thankful most combat vets can integrate back into societal norms. 

27 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

If we are going to accept that every trained vet should be exempt from giving up pretend war weapons (now with bump stocks allowed), as you just did,

Not even close to saying that. Until the law is changed, why would they surrender their guns. 

28 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

That's not really moderate from a societal perspective, seems to me.

You've made it clear that it's all just a schtick. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,419]

5 hours ago, BIGUN said:

That's his M.O. He doesn't add or contribute. He tears down. He didn't say - that's a good plan (like others), but here's some things to consider making it better (like others). All he does is pull some one line from somebody's post and hollers, "Gotchya!!" 

I'm just done with it and have blocked him.  

Hi Keith,

I have beat you to that.

Jerry Baumchen