More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[billvon 3,070]

  On 7/20/2022 at 2:31 AM, JoeWeber said:

The government does provide border control but does not supply viagra to those admitted. No matter, just what the holy hell does border control control have to  do with your Jurassic Hog problem?

It's the go-to bete noir of any conservative.  The border is the worst thing ever, there are hordes of migrants coming over to vandalize, loot, pillage and try to kill Americans (but not the same way the Jan 6th rioters did, that was OK.)  They kind of have to bring it up, the same way a libertarian has to attack taxes and welfare within their first three sentences.

[JoeWeber 2,823]

  On 7/20/2022 at 2:48 AM, gowlerk said:

But you do see the point don't you?

Yes, I do. But I still think your approach was ham handed. That said, no matter what I think I believe what you wrote is a needed aspect of this entire, ridiculous feature of American life and if my taking a swat from a Canadian helps, I'll take it.

[gowlerk 2,249]

  On 7/20/2022 at 3:25 AM, JoeWeber said:

Yes, I do. But I still think your approach was ham handed. That said, no matter what I think I believe what you wrote is a needed aspect of this entire, ridiculous feature of American life and if my taking a swat from a Canadian helps, I'll take it.

Thanks. It's a huge and largely intractable problem. The tiresome part is the same arguments over and over, all of them nipping at the edges and asking for small changes that would be almost meaningless even if they were enacted. 

[Phil1111 1,149]

  On 7/20/2022 at 2:39 AM, gowlerk said:

... If those numbers are not equal you are part of the problem and should probably just STFU.

Bad day at the office?

[gowlerk 2,249]

  On 7/20/2022 at 12:49 PM, Phil1111 said:

Bad day at the office?

Being blunt is a method I sometimes choose. Joe is tough enough to take it.

[Phil1111 1,149]

  On 7/20/2022 at 12:43 PM, gowlerk said:

Thanks. It's a huge and largely intractable problem. The tiresome part is the same arguments over and over, all of them nipping at the edges and asking for small changes that would be almost meaningless even if they were enacted. 

It all boils down to the power and single mindedness of the American gun psyche and lobby. When enough voters get sick of it the debate will end and the blast furnaces will get fed.Clearly they are not sick enough yet.

Its the same as the climate debate. Gas prices mean more to most Americans than the climate. The debate is moving but not very fast.

[Phil1111 1,149]

  On 7/20/2022 at 12:52 PM, gowlerk said:

Being blunt is a method I sometimes choose. Joe is tough enough to take it.

Fair enough. IMO disgruntled young males easy access to guns is the problem. AFAIK the Las Vegas shooter, a 64 YO male. Was the only outlier to the mass shooter madness.A well off mature male with a will to kill. If AR-15s were banned. The madness could continue because there is such easy access to so many weapons. The new law just passed will do nothing.

[GeorgiaDon 379]

  On 7/20/2022 at 12:53 PM, Phil1111 said:

It all boils down to the power and single mindedness of the American gun psyche and lobby. When enough voters get sick of it the debate will end and the blast furnaces will get fed.Clearly they are not sick enough yet.

Its the same as the climate debate. Gas prices mean more to most Americans than the climate. The debate is moving but not very fast.

Well yes, but beyond that is a widely entrenched American ideology of "freedom" that emphasizes "personal liberty" above all else.  People in other civilized societies recognize some balance exists between personal liberty and restrictions needed to make for a workable/liveable society.  Indeed, they recognize that these two things are not always zero-sum affairs.  For example, fewer firearms corresponds to less violent crime which results in more freedom to go out and do things without fear of being killed.  Universal health insurance results in greater freedom to change jobs (or start your own business) without exposing yourself or your dependents to the risk of being uninsured, which is especially problematic if you or any of your dependents have a pre-existing medical condition.  A large proportion of Americans, though, only recognize things that directly benefit themselves, and mostly in the short term.  Almost anything that requires a measure of personal sacrifice, even if the result is a benefit to the whole of society, is pretty much a non-starter.

[Phil1111 1,149]

  On 7/20/2022 at 1:29 PM, GeorgiaDon said:

Well yes, but beyond that ..., even if the result is a benefit to the whole of society, is pretty much a non-starter.

I agree with all of that. But many Americans are prepared to separate guns from that identity.Those factors will likely make any hurdle of gun control much higher to achieve.

So the carnage will continue.Until the minority compromises.

[gowlerk 2,249]

  On 7/20/2022 at 1:29 PM, GeorgiaDon said:

Well yes, but beyond that is a widely entrenched American ideology of "freedom" that emphasizes "personal liberty" above all else. 

Sure, then explain how the American Taliban manage to pass laws denying reproductive choice. Explain why sexual expression beyond the mainstream is being suppressed. Explain why police kill with near impunity unless video can show their crimes. American "freedom" has always been limited to those with power.

Ultimately the 2nd Amendment will be re-interpreted or changed only when those who hold the power feel threatened themselves. And I don't see that happening soon, which is a good thing because those will be troubled times indeed.

Edited July 20, 2022 by gowlerk

[billvon 3,070]

  On 7/20/2022 at 2:27 PM, gowlerk said:

Sure, then explain how the American Taliban manage to pass laws denying reproductive choice. Explain why sexual expression beyond the mainstream is being suppressed. Explain why police kill with near impunity unless video can show their crimes. American "freedom" has always been limited to those with power.

Because those Talibanis want freedom for themselves.  And they are not, generally, women.  They are not, generally, LGBT, or really anything other than missionary in the dark with the mistress.  Thus THEIR freedoms are protected.

Many of these people really do see it as a zero sum game.  If they take away someone else's rights, they get more - or at the very least own them.  And owning people has been something of a conservative goal for centuries, in one form or another.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

  On 7/20/2022 at 1:29 PM, GeorgiaDon said:

Well yes, but beyond that is a widely entrenched American ideology of "freedom" that emphasizes "personal liberty" above all else.

But only personal liberty for some things and really only those allowed within a Christian environment. Certainly not the same personal liberty for women, LGBTQ, or POC.

When all that personal liberty further leads to kids having to wear bulletproof backpacks, locked into schools, higher child mortality, lower overall life expectancy, etc. you pretty quickly come to the realization that this personal liberty leaves you worse off.

And how much personal liberty do we give up for that? Well we give up having to go bankrupt over medical bills, some restrictions on hate speech and we don't get to brings guns everywhere.

Not sure how one can be reasonable and also not see the value in that trade off.

[JoeWeber 2,823]

  On 7/20/2022 at 1:50 PM, Phil1111 said:

I agree with all of that. But many Americans are prepared to separate guns from that identity.Those factors will likely make any hurdle of gun control much higher to achieve.

So the carnage will continue.Until the minority compromises.

An unregulated hog eradication program, being necessary to the security of a pig free America, the right of the people to use yet to be invented machine guns fired from yet to be invented helicopters to make sausage meat out of the bastards shall, when the right time comes, be read into the US Constitution.

[wmw999 2,534]

  On 7/20/2022 at 3:57 PM, SkyDekker said:

When all that personal liberty further leads to kids having to wear bulletproof backpacks, locked into schools,

Ah, but if your kids are home-schooled or in a private school that’s all taken care of. And if women have fewer employment options (like before the 70’s, when most could choose among teacher/nurse/secretary), then the smart ones will go back to teaching

Wendy P. 

[wmw999 2,534]

  On 7/20/2022 at 4:15 PM, JoeWeber said:

An unregulated hog eradication program, being necessary to the security of a pig free America, the right of the people to use yet to be invented machine guns fired from yet to be invented helicopters to make sausage meat out of the bastards shall, when the right time comes, be read into the US Constitution.

Around much of the South, feral hogs are a very destructive problem, and have been for years. They really tear places up, and are prolific breeders. Unlimited hunting puts a dent in, but by no means controls them. And since the meat is gamy, people who might hunt them for food won’t always  

Wendy P. 

[JoeWeber 2,823]

  On 7/20/2022 at 4:22 PM, wmw999 said:

Around much of the South, feral hogs are a very destructive problem, and have been for years. They really tear places up, and are prolific breeders. Unlimited hunting puts a dent in, but by no means controls them. And since the meat is gamy, people who might hunt them for food won’t always  

Wendy P. 

I'm well aware, but it's not Jurassic Park: it's wild pigs. The idea that a bunch of private army wannabee military gumbo's need to use "belt fed weapons" fired from "rotary platforms" to "eradicate" a problem that can not be eradicated by the method is just plain dumb. Only in America can such idiotic nonsense be offered up as a common sense solution and justification for our stupid interpretation of what should have been an innocent, and useful, constitutional amendment.

[billvon 3,070]

  On 7/20/2022 at 4:22 PM, wmw999 said:

Around much of the South, feral hogs are a very destructive problem, and have been for years. They really tear places up, and are prolific breeders. Unlimited hunting puts a dent in, but by no means controls them.

Same thing was tried in Australia.  Didn't work then, either.

[wmw999 2,534]

Is there anything that puts more than a dent in? Just maybe the dent is better than nothing. (and no, machine guns are tacky if nothing else)

Wendy P. 

[JoeWeber 2,823]

  On 7/20/2022 at 6:53 PM, wmw999 said:

Is there anything that puts more than a dent in? Just maybe the dent is better than nothing. (and no, machine guns are tacky if nothing else)

Wendy P. 

Sure, give them the same rights as the alligators living in Florida Golf Courses and put your moonshine still somewhere else. 

[billvon 3,070]

  On 7/20/2022 at 6:53 PM, wmw999 said:

Is there anything that puts more than a dent in?

Get predators in.  Alligators and mountain lions prey on feral pigs but people don't like them.  Also golden eagles and coyotes, which are more compatible with humans.

[JoeWeber 2,823]

  On 7/20/2022 at 7:22 PM, billvon said:

Get predators in.  Alligators and mountain lions prey on feral pigs but people don't like them.  Also golden eagles and coyotes, which are more compatible with humans.

Maybe quit releasing idiots into the environment would help: "Cedar Knoll Hunting Lodge is located near the Savannah River in South Carolina. This area is one of the few places in the country that actually features wild hogs at home in their natural habitat. Unlike some hunting circles that release domesticated hogs into the wild, Cedar Knoll is all natural."

Possibly just not letting loose your pigs so you can hunt them down and kill them could be a part of the solution, too.

[gowlerk 2,249]

  On 7/20/2022 at 8:20 PM, JoeWeber said:

This area is one of the few places in the country that actually features wild hogs at home in their natural habitat.

Now there is a fine example of idiocy right there. Hogs are not native to North America, or anywhere in the new world.

[wmw999 2,534]

  On 7/20/2022 at 8:20 PM, JoeWeber said:

Possibly just not letting loose your pigs so you can hunt them down and kill them could be a part of the solution, too.

That’d help. Kind of like pythons in Florida and cats and chickens in Hawaii. Feral hogs of the kind I’m thinking of aren’t the same as the javelina that exist in the Southwest. They’re not native, and they’re bigger and more omnivorous than most native animals

Wendy P. 

[Phil1111 1,149]

  On 7/20/2022 at 8:34 PM, gowlerk said:

Now there is a fine example of idiocy right there. Hogs are not native to North America, or anywhere in the new world.

A peccary (also javelina or skunk pig) is a medium-sized, pig-like hoofed mammal of the family Tayassuidae (New World pigs)

"The last common ancestors of peccaries and other even-toed ungulates were vaguely piglike animals that lived over 50 million years ago. Peccaries evolved in Europe about 30 million years ago and spread across much of the world. In the Old World, peccaries went extinct, but they survived in North America. About three million years ago, peccaries spread into South America.

They are often confused^[3] with feral domestic pigs of the Old World (family Suidae), commonly known as "razorback" hogs in many parts of the United States,^[4] when the two occur in the wild in similar ranges.

Mayans kept herds of peccaries, using them in rituals and for food.^[5] They are kept as pets in many countries, in addition to being raised on farms as a source of food.^[6]"

[billvon 3,070]

  On 7/20/2022 at 8:20 PM, JoeWeber said:

This area is one of the few places in the country that actually features wild hogs at home in their natural habitat. Unlike some hunting circles that release domesticated hogs into the wild, Cedar Knoll is all natural.

Hey, I am sure they have trained their feral hogs to stay home and not wander onto other people's property.