More sacrifices to the 2nd Amendment

[Phil1111 1,149]

  On 1/10/2023 at 4:54 PM, billvon said:

One of the purposes of this thread is to keep most of the 2nd amendment stuff here.

Just being facetious.

[normiss 851]

  On 1/10/2023 at 4:54 PM, billvon said:

One of the purposes of this thread is to keep most of the 2nd amendment stuff here.

Good to see it being well regulated.

[JerryBaumchen 1,436]

Hi folks,

He should be glad that the restaurant did not shoot back:  Washington man shoots at Taco Bell, angry because it was closed - oregonlive.com

We keep talking about how the mentally ill should have access to guns.  I would argue that this man would not be determined to be mentally incompetent.  I have talked to my son about what Oregon considers mentally incompetent and could be put into an institution.  He says that if he can tell you his name, his address, etc, etc, then he would be considered sane.

So, just what is the solution?  Obviously, the loony-tune above should not have access to guns.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[billeisele 130]

Taking a page out of the Democrat playbook, IL passed gun legislation that is clearly unconstitutional. No doubt this will be challenged and struck down. The recent OR attempt at gun control was blocked by the court until arguments are heard and a ruling issued.

Seventy-four sheriffs have publicly stated that they won't enforce it. The Gov Pritzker says, "yes you will."
The law bans the manufacture or possession of dozens of semi-auto rifles AND pistols, 50 caliber guns, high capacity mags and makes it illegal to own an item that increases the rate of fire. The law requires that existing owners register the items with the State police including the serial number.

"No Illinoisan, no matter their zip code, should have to go through life fearing their loved one could be the next in an ever-growing list of victims of mass shootings," the governor said. "However, for too long people have lived in fear of being gunned down in schools, while worshipping, at celebrations or in their own front yards. This legislation will stop the spread of assault weapons, high-capacity magazines, and switches and make our state a safer place for all."

 

Opponents of the legislation have said it would do nothing to reduce violent crime in Illinois. People who break the law, people who commit violent crime are not going to register their firearms, are not going to turn in their magazines. This will not stop that crime. What will happen is law-abiding gun owners will be yet again impacted by laws in this General Assembly, yet again have their Second Amendment rights restrained," 

The problem with these attempts is there is no credible evidence that they will be successful in reducing gun violence. They seem to ignore the fact that mass shootings are not the primary problem and that criminals don't follow the law. It seems that politicians continue to pander to their voters so they can say they tried even though they should know it was meaningless. 

I'm all for effective legislation but it must be legal. It seems that banning items that increase the rate of fire should be doable. Stiffer background checks, red flag laws and more.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/illinois-latest-us-state-ban-assault-weapons/story?id=96356906

https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/pritzker-signs-illinois-assault-weapons-ban/

[kallend 2,106]

  On 1/14/2023 at 9:43 PM, billeisele said:

 

The problem with these attempts is there is no credible evidence that they will be successful in reducing gun violence.

Yes!  Not a single western nation that has imposed strict laws on gun possession has gun violence lower than the USA.  Not Germany, France, Netherlands, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Ireland. . . .  

 

Clearly they should all copy the  examples of Alabama, Missouri or Louisiana, havens of safety.

</sarcasm>

[JoeWeber 2,823]

  On 1/14/2023 at 9:43 PM, billeisele said:

I'm all for effective legislation but it must be legal.

According to whom? Antonin Scalia or the current 6 conservatives on the USSC? Your helicopter hog hunting buddies. Seriously, Bill, legal comes from legislation like chickens come from eggs. You're too used to having it both ways.

[JerryBaumchen 1,436]

  On 1/14/2023 at 9:43 PM, billeisele said:

Taking a page out of the Democrat playbook, IL passed gun legislation that is clearly unconstitutional. No doubt this will be challenged and struck down. The recent OR attempt at gun control was blocked by the court until arguments are heard and a ruling issued.

Seventy-four sheriffs have publicly stated that they won't enforce it. The Gov Pritzker says, "yes you will."
The law bans the manufacture or possession of dozens of semi-auto rifles AND pistols, 50 caliber guns, high capacity mags and makes it illegal to own an item that increases the rate of fire. The law requires that existing owners register the items with the State police including the serial number.

"No Illinoisan, no matter their zip code, should have to go through life fearing their loved one could be the next in an ever-growing list of victims of mass shootings," the governor said. "However, for too long people have lived in fear of being gunned down in schools, while worshipping, at celebrations or in their own front yards. This legislation will stop the spread of assault weapons, high-capacity magazines, and switches and make our state a safer place for all."

 

Opponents of the legislation have said it would do nothing to reduce violent crime in Illinois. People who break the law, people who commit violent crime are not going to register their firearms, are not going to turn in their magazines. This will not stop that crime. What will happen is law-abiding gun owners will be yet again impacted by laws in this General Assembly, yet again have their Second Amendment rights restrained," 

The problem with these attempts is there is no credible evidence that they will be successful in reducing gun violence. They seem to ignore the fact that mass shootings are not the primary problem and that criminals don't follow the law. It seems that politicians continue to pander to their voters so they can say they tried even though they should know it was meaningless. 

I'm all for effective legislation but it must be legal. It seems that banning items that increase the rate of fire should be doable. Stiffer background checks, red flag laws and more.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/illinois-latest-us-state-ban-assault-weapons/story?id=96356906

https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/pritzker-signs-illinois-assault-weapons-ban/

Hi Bill,

Re:  Gov Pritzker says, "yes you will."

I don't the situation in Illinois.  Here in Oregon, all LEO's have to be certified by the state.  While a sheriff is elected, I 'think' that to retain their job, they must have their state issued certification.  That leads me to think that, here in Oregon, should the governor void their certification(s), they would be out of a job.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

Our newly elected governor is a very strong personality.  I do not think that she would any BS from any sheriff in this state.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[Phil1111 1,149]

  On 1/14/2023 at 10:39 PM, JoeWeber said:

According to whom? Antonin Scalia or the current 6 conservatives on the USSC? Your helicopter hog hunting buddies. Seriously, Bill, legal comes from legislation like chickens come from eggs. You're too used to having it both ways.

For gun owners anything. For those wanting to control guns: THE LAW.

[billeisele 130]

  On 1/14/2023 at 11:22 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill,

Re:  Gov Pritzker says, "yes you will."

I don't the situation in Illinois.  Here in Oregon, all LEO's have to be certified by the state.  While a sheriff is elected, I 'think' that to retain their job, they must have their state issued certification.  That leads me to think that, here in Oregon, should the governor void their certification(s), they would be out of a job.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

Our newly elected governor is a very strong personality.  I do not think that she would any BS from any sheriff in this state.

Jerry Baumchen

Jerry - That is also how it works here in SC. We've had 3 sheriffs, that I know of, removed from office in the last 5 years. All were for some type of illegal activity; drug use, fraud, stealing, etc.

In this case the law went into effect as soon as it was passed. I suspect that objections to the law will be quickly filed so that no one will lose a job. There is a political cost to those actions.

[billeisele 130]

  On 1/14/2023 at 10:03 PM, kallend said:

Yes!  Not a single western nation that has imposed strict laws on gun possession has gun violence lower than the USA.  Not Germany, France, Netherlands, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Ireland. . . .  

 

Clearly they should all copy the  examples of Alabama, Missouri or Louisiana, havens of safety.

</sarcasm>

Since my comments were solely focused on the gun laws that were passed by IL, none of that is relevant. 

The majority of gun violence in YOUR city is committed with handguns. The vast majority of which would not be impacted by the IL law, even if criminals magically decided to obey the law.

[billeisele 130]

  On 1/14/2023 at 10:39 PM, JoeWeber said:

According to whom? Antonin Scalia or the current 6 conservatives on the USSC? Your helicopter hog hunting buddies. Seriously, Bill, legal comes from legislation like chickens come from eggs. You're too used to having it both ways.

Joe - Unfortunately, I don't have any helicopter hog hunting buddies.

It's simple. It's fruitless to pass laws that can't be upheld. If legislators want to pass laws that conflict with the 2nd then they will need to change the 2nd. It seems that it would be easier for a State to ID effective laws that would be upheld and pass those first.

One could conclude that they don't really want to pass laws. They just want their voters to think they want to pass laws. 

There are parts of the legislation that could be upheld. But things like the 100 specific guns that are listed and their knockoffs, the inability to buy any type of ammo without a state issued Firearms Owners ID card, inability to have a pistol with a threaded barrel, etc., will, most likely, not be upheld in court. 

Reading their pleas and fear mongering it's clear that some don't have a clue what they are talking about or how to actually do something effective. One would think that if someone wanted to be an outspoken critic they would take an hour and be educated so they wouldn't be and sound ignorant. 

Gov Pirtzker has already passed some laws that one would think would work. I'm wondering if those laws have been effective at reducing gun violence. 

Governor Pritzker has also signed legislation to ban unserialized, privately made "ghost guns," the first Midwestern state to do so (HB 4383). In 2021, Governor Pritzker signed legislation expanding background checks on all gun sales in Illinois and modernizing and strengthening the Firearm Owners Identification Card System (HB 562). Additionally, Governor Pritzker signed legislation (SB 337) to combat the scourge of illegal gun trafficking, making Illinois the 16th state to require gun dealers to be certified by the state after more than a decade of work. Governor Pritzker's Reimagine Public Safety Act also established the first ever Office of Firearm Violence Prevention, providing a historic investment in community-based violence prevention for the communities most affected by firearm violence

[billeisele 130]

6 criminals caught in Kentucky and 8 guns seized.  There was a shootout with 600 rounds fired. Most likely there were more people involved and more guns. One clear fact is that some had previous criminal records and were prohibited from possessing a gun.

Why were these two on the street?!? Are judges, lawyers and the court system part of the problem?

Two of the suspects -- Walls and Smyzer -- were recently arrested on murder charges for a fatal shooting that occurred last month, police said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/arrests-made-in-shootout-with-nearly-600-rounds-fired/ar-AA16lQ6l?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=78718bbff61f42ce943e754e9c7249bd

Five of the seized guns are in this pic. Two would be considered "assault weapons." They are the scary looking semi-auto guns (pistols?) with the high-capacity magazines. The two rifles don't have the ammo capacity or the firing speed of the pistols but some would consider them more deadly due to their accuracy and ability to be lethal at a greater distance. Neither of these would have been banned under any proposed or passed legislation. The one with the scope is a common hunting rifle owned by thousands if not millions.

[jakee 1,563]

  On 1/14/2023 at 9:43 PM, billeisele said:

They seem to ignore the fact that mass shootings are not the primary problem and that criminals don't follow the law. 

So why do we bother with laws?

[kallend 2,106]

  On 1/15/2023 at 5:19 PM, billeisele said:

Since my comments were solely focused on the gun laws that were passed by IL, none of that is relevant. 

The majority of gun violence in YOUR city is committed with handguns. The vast majority of which would not be impacted by the IL law, even if criminals magically decided to obey the law.

R I G H T - It's ALWAYS irrelevant when data show that strict laws in other countries are more effective in preventing gun violence than lax laws in the USA.

[billeisele 130]

  On 1/15/2023 at 7:07 PM, kallend said:

R I G H T - It's ALWAYS irrelevant when data show that strict laws in other countries are more effective in preventing gun violence than lax laws in the USA.

You are welcome to start another conversation with your thoughts. Mine were directed at the IL law. 

Suggest you start by listing those strict guns laws so all of us can learn. Then tell us how the US can transition to meet those laws. I'm interested.

[jakee 1,563]

  On 1/15/2023 at 7:26 PM, billeisele said:

You are welcome to start another conversation with your thoughts. Mine were directed at the IL law. 

So it is only these specific Illinois gun laws that criminals won’t follow, but they would follow other gun laws?

[billeisele 130]

  On 1/15/2023 at 6:57 PM, jakee said:

So why do we bother with laws?

That could be a normal reaction when accused criminals are let off by the court to repeat offend. Although relevant, that's not what u r getting at. 

If no laws then is there a need for law enforcement officers?

IMO - yes, laws are needed, as are LEOs. Without either, it would be anarchy. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,436]

  On 1/15/2023 at 7:31 PM, billeisele said:

That could be a normal reaction when accused criminals are let off by the court to repeat offend. Although relevant, that's not what u r getting at. 

If no laws then is there a need for law enforcement officers?

IMO - yes, laws are needed, as are LEOs. Without either, it would be anarchy. 

Hi Bill,

Yet, you just posted [ #2065 ]:  It's fruitless to pass laws that can't be upheld.

I would appreciate if you could provide us with just one law that cannot be broken.

I think your heart is in the right place; I just cannot keep up with your scattershot posts.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[billeisele 130]

  On 1/15/2023 at 8:06 PM, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Bill,

Yet, you just posted [ #2065 ]:  It's fruitless to pass laws that can't be upheld.

I would appreciate if you could provide us with just one law that cannot be broken.

I think your heart is in the right place; I just cannot keep up with your scattershot posts.

Jerry Baumchen

 

Hey Jerry - To me there's a difference between a law that is lawful, and one that wasn't/can't/won't, or whatever, be upheld in court as legal.

When (legal) laws are broken then prosecution can be successful. No doubt that laws can and are broken. That's why properly operating LEOs and court systems are needed.

 

[jakee 1,563]

  On 1/15/2023 at 7:31 PM, billeisele said:

That could be a normal reaction when accused criminals are let off by the court to repeat offend. Although relevant, that's not what u r getting at. 

If no laws then is there a need for law enforcement officers?

IMO - yes, laws are needed, as are LEOs. Without either, it would be anarchy. 

So why shouldn’t we bother with these laws?

[JoeWeber 2,823]

  On 1/15/2023 at 8:13 PM, billeisele said:

Hey Jerry - To me there's a difference between a law that is lawful, and one that wasn't/can't/won't, or whatever, be upheld in court as legal.

When (legal) laws are broken then prosecution can be successful. No doubt that laws can and are broken. That's why properly operating LEOs and court systems are needed.

 

Bill, if a smart guy like you cannot get it then I despair of convincing others. I'll try a single last time: it's not the gun laws in America, it's the gun culture in America. A gun culture that allows this sort of thing to be normalized or explained away by apologists: 

 

[JoeWeber 2,823]

Add this to the list. In fairness, if someone, even a DoorDash Driver, attempted to deliver a meal from Chili's Restaurant to my home I'd be irritated. But in some parts of the United Gun Club of America decorum necessitates that the entire family come out armed and charging firing shots.

It's not the laws it's the culture.

 

[Phil1111 1,149]

  On 1/16/2023 at 4:39 PM, JoeWeber said:

Bill, if a smart guy like you cannot get it then I despair of convincing others. I'll try a single last time: it's not the gun laws in America, it's the gun culture in America. A gun culture that allows this sort of thing to be normalized or explained away by apologists: ...

 

  On 1/16/2023 at 5:34 PM, JoeWeber said:

Add this to the list. In fairness, if someone, even a DoorDash Driver, attempted to deliver a meal from Chili's Restaurant to my home I'd be irritated. But in some parts of the United Gun Club of America decorum necessitates that the entire family come out armed and charging firing shots.

It's not the laws it's the culture.

Face it. Sandy Hook, Las Vegas 2017 and all they years since. Yes you're right and its never going to change.

[billvon 3,070]

  On 1/16/2023 at 5:34 PM, JoeWeber said:

Add this to the list. In fairness, if someone, even a DoorDash Driver, attempted to deliver a meal from Chili's Restaurant to my home I'd be irritated. But in some parts of the United Gun Club of America decorum necessitates that the entire family come out armed and charging firing shots.

 

They were merely Standing their Ground (tm).

[riggerrob 643]

  On 1/14/2023 at 10:03 PM, kallend said:

Yes!  Not a single western nation that has imposed strict laws on gun possession has gun violence lower than the USA.  Not Germany, France, Netherlands, Sweden, Spain, Italy, Canada, ....

Go re-read Canadian statistics on gun crimes.

Canadian gun laws may not be perfect, but they do limit gun violence. The majority of guns used to commit crimes in Canada were smuggled in from the USA.