Pilot rigs on pilots

[baronn 111]

So the FAA website says that the STC for the door mod for skydiving operations requires the pilot to wear a bailout rig. I've never seen a King air or Otter pilot wear 1. Saw a rig hangin on the back of the right seat on a Skyvan. Is this just being ignored or different rules for different aircraft?

[mark 107]

baronn

So the FAA website says that the STC for the door mod for skydiving operations requires the pilot to wear a bailout rig. I've never seen a King air or Otter pilot wear 1. Saw a rig hangin on the back of the right seat on a Skyvan. Is this just being ignored or different rules for different aircraft?

Can you provide a link to the particular section of the FAA website?

Mark

[likestojump 3]

baronn

So the FAA website says that the STC for the door mod for skydiving operations requires the pilot to wear a bailout rig. I've never seen a King air or Otter pilot wear 1. Saw a rig hangin on the back of the right seat on a Skyvan. Is this just being ignored or different rules for different aircraft?

Just taking a stab at it :
Every STC is a separate piece of approval. This some require bailout rigs to be worn (like 182), while others may not (like the Caravan).

[RiggerLee 61]

I was once told that it involved whether or not they are technically in a separate cabin. For example, an Otter actually has a bulkhead between the main cabin and the cockpit.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[mjosparky 4]

likestojump

***So the FAA website says that the STC for the door mod for skydiving operations requires the pilot to wear a bailout rig. I've never seen a King air or Otter pilot wear 1. Saw a rig hangin on the back of the right seat on a Skyvan. Is this just being ignored or different rules for different aircraft?

Just taking a stab at it :
Every STC is a separate piece of approval. This some require bailout rigs to be worn (like 182), while others may not (like the Caravan).

You are right, every STC is issued to a particular aircraft. If it is not address in the STC and they are not doing aerobatics there is no requirement for anyone on board to wear a rig. That only comes into play if your goal is to exit the plane.

Ref: Part 91.307 (c)

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[chuckakers 425]

likestojump

***So the FAA website says that the STC for the door mod for skydiving operations requires the pilot to wear a bailout rig. I've never seen a King air or Otter pilot wear 1. Saw a rig hangin on the back of the right seat on a Skyvan. Is this just being ignored or different rules for different aircraft?

Just taking a stab at it :
Every STC is a separate piece of approval. This some require bailout rigs to be worn (like 182), while others may not (like the Caravan).

yep

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Elisha 1]

I've never NOT seen a King Air pilot wear one.

[riggerrob 643]

Whether a pilot wears a pilot emergency parachute depends upon STC paperwork and individual risk assessment.

Risk assessment is based on the record of crashes of that type of airplane and the pilot's confidence that he/she is good enough to avoid all accident scenarios. All pilots are more confident than the general public. Sadly, a few pilot's confidence exceeds their skill level.

OTOH I have flown with a half-dozen King Air pilots who never wear pilot emergency parachutes. By their logic, the pilot's seat is too far from the jump-door to bail out.
Twin Otters are even worse because of a bulkhead and longer distance to the normal door. Furthermore, some twins (e.g. Twin Otter and Skyvan) have pilot doors ahead of spinning propellers. SCARY!

The easiest airplanes - to bail out of - have doors beside the pilot's seat (Airvan, single-engined Cessna's, Kodiak, Porter, Navajo Chieftan).

The two most likely bail-out scenarios are engine fire or a jumper bending the tail during exit.

[Bob_Church 7]

After that accident in Wisconsin where the one pilot survived by bailing out I figured the FAA would start clamping down on that rule. I bought a used bailout rig with a Phantom for demos where the FAA might show up and want one. The biggest problem is getting a round packed but I've been lucky so far.
Another thing that we used to do, and works ok, is to take an older rig, something like a Wonderhog, and cut off the main flaps. If you loosen up the leg straps, just a little, and let it ride up the reserve will fit over top of the seat of a Cessna.

[likestojump 3]

Bob_Church

The biggest problem is getting a round packed but I've been lucky so far..

Did you seriously have a rigger refuse to pack a round PEP with a round ???

[baronn 111]

Don't wanna drop dimes on anyone but, I've jumped a KA a few times and have never seen a pilot rig on any of those pilots. The thread was started to find out the Rules from the FAA, not whether it's a good idea or not. IMO, that's a personal, rule decision. I'm not lookin toget anyone in trouble, I just want to know what the FAA says. I haven't found any solid statement from them yet. I'll post anything I find.

[piisfish 140]

riggerrob

The two most likely bail-out scenarios are engine fire or a jumper bending the tail during exit.

the only pilot I know who has bailed from his plane (except for an ejection from a Mirage III) was a Porter pilot. He unbuckled and jumped in front of the plane after the whole front of the plane ripped off due to a propeller break.
http://www.pc-6.com/history/685.htm

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[mark 107]

baronn

Don't wanna drop dimes on anyone but, I've jumped a KA a few times and have never seen a pilot rig on any of those pilots. The thread was started to find out the Rules from the FAA, not whether it's a good idea or not. IMO, that's a personal, rule decision. I'm not lookin toget anyone in trouble, I just want to know what the FAA says. I haven't found any solid statement from them yet. I'll post anything I find.

From your original post:

baronn

So the FAA website says that the STC for the door mod for skydiving operations requires the pilot to wear a bailout rig.

Is that solid enough for you? How about posting what you found on the FAA website?

For the rest of us 91.307 is the only FAA regulation about pilots wearing parachutes. Nothing in there about a pilot needing a parachute for skydiving operations, nor needing a parachute unless it's a cabin-class aircraft, nor needing a parachute because the door is operated in flight.

Mark

[councilman24 37]

likestojump

***The biggest problem is getting a round packed but I've been lucky so far..

Did you seriously have a rigger refuse to pack a round PEP with a round ???

Remember, many new riggers for the last few years have no training on round parachutes. Dave DeWolf does not include training or testing on round parachutes and PEP's in his basic rigger course. For that training you have to stay longer and spend more money. On the other hand my FAA Supervising Inspector REQUIRES me to test senior rigger candidates on round AND ram air parachutes.

And even if they know how to pack they many don't have the equipment and facilities to pack round parachutes and don't want to mess with them.

The problem is with the ones that don't know how but still pack them.

On the other hand there still should be a lot of old farts around the midwest. About all I pack are pilot rigs with rounds. He may not have tried very hard.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Elisha 1]

I have over 600 KA jumps and the plane I've jumped with the vast majority of those 600 wore a pilot rig.

[likestojump 3]

councilman24

******The biggest problem is getting a round packed but I've been lucky so far..

Did you seriously have a rigger refuse to pack a round PEP with a round ???

Remember, many new riggers for the last few years have no training on round parachutes. Dave DeWolf does not include training or testing on round parachutes and PEP's in his basic rigger course. For that training you have to stay longer and spend more money. On the other hand my FAA Supervising Inspector REQUIRES me to test senior rigger candidates on round AND ram air parachutes.

And even if they know how to pack they many don't have the equipment and facilities to pack round parachutes and don't want to mess with them.

The problem is with the ones that don't know how but still pack them.

On the other hand there still should be a lot of old farts around the midwest. About all I pack are pilot rigs with rounds. He may not have tried very hard.

I ain't no old fart, but but have plenty of round packjobs. It ain't nuclear rocket surgery, and freepacking a round into a bailout is easier than bagging a square. And I don't think you need much more than the floorspace to stretch the canopy out.

Basically, my opinion is that if a rigger refuses to pack a back bailout rig, I would be cautious of how knowledgeable and competent they are.

[DBCOOPER 5]

baronn

So the FAA website says that the STC for the door mod for skydiving operations requires the pilot to wear a bailout rig. I've never seen a King air or Otter pilot wear 1. Saw a rig hangin on the back of the right seat on a Skyvan. Is this just being ignored or different rules for different aircraft?

I love when people make shit up.

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

....I don't think you need much more than the floorspace to stretch the canopy out.

I think this has been covered before, but here it is again.

The law states that you must have a table.
§65.127 Facilities and equipment.
No certificated parachute rigger may exercise the privileges of his certificate unless he has at least the following facilities and equipment available to him:

(a) A smooth top table at least three feet wide by 40 feet long.

(b) Suitable housing that is adequately heated, lighted, and ventilated for drying and airing parachutes.

(c) Enough packing tools and other equipment to pack and maintain the types of parachutes that he services.

(d) Adequate housing facilities to perform his duties and to protect his tools and equipment.

[Doc. No. 1179, 27 FR 7973, Aug. 10, 1962, as amended by Amdt. 65-27, 47 FR 13316, Mar. 29, 1982]

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[PhreeZone 20]

Quote

Did you seriously have a rigger refuse to pack a round PEP with a round ???

Hell, I am only 30 minutes away from the poster and would pack a round with no hesitation. I need to dig the line separator back out since I have not used it in years but its not that hard to pack a round. The hardest part is the inspection taking forever.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[baronn 111]

Make Shit up? Now, why would I do that? Never ceases to amaze me when I see these kind of responses. Another all knowing individual that doesn't know me or my experience and instead of bringing some information or knowledge to the conversation, simply wants to doubt someone else's facts. Another reason I don't miss all the BS at bigger DZ's.........

[DBCOOPER 5]

baronn

Make Shit up? Now, why would I do that? Never ceases to amaze me when I see these kind of responses. Another all knowing individual that doesn't know me or my experience and instead of bringing some information or knowledge to the conversation, simply wants to doubt someone else's facts. Another reason I don't miss all the BS at bigger DZ's.........

Just provide the reference from the FAA web site and I'll retract my "make shit up"

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[likestojump 3]

masterrigger1

Quote

....I don't think you need much more than the floorspace to stretch the canopy out.

I think this has been covered before, but here it is again.

The law states that you must have a table
§65.127 Facilities and equipment.
No certificated parachute rigger may exercise the privileges of his certificate unless he has at least the following facilities and equipment available to him:

(a) A smooth top table at least three feet wide by 40 feet long.

---snipped ---
MEL

Sure does.

I wonder what percentage of people that repack rounds have a table, and how many of these tables are actually at least 3ft wide and at least 40ft long.

I bet it's not a lot. And of course I am being strictly hypothetical.

[bill6870 3]

Where does that regulation specify rounds? Technically even if you only pack ram air reserves you are required to have access to a 40 foot table.

Blue Skies

[likestojump 3]

bill6870

Where does that regulation specify rounds? Technically even if you only pack ram air reserves you are required to have access to a 40 foot table.

another good point.

We are all fucked.

I am going to go further violate my Senior rigger cert limitations by making some closing loops. Good night.

[jimjumper 25]

Nothing in that regulation about how tall the table has to be! :)