How long till Kabul falls?

[gowlerk 2,249]

Will the Taliban have the keys in time for the 9/11 20th anniversary?

The west calls them terrorists. In their home country they’re basically “we the people”.

Edited July 2, 2021 by gowlerk

[winsor 236]

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

If they want to go back to the Dark Ages, why is it out concern?

[JerryBaumchen 1,436]

28 minutes ago, winsor said:

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

If they want to go back to the Dark Ages, why is it out concern?

Hi winsor,

Re:  If they want to go back to the Dark Ages, why is it out concern?

Some of them do not have a choice.  IMO this is the problem.

They are not an open & free society.

Jerry Baumchen

[brenthutch 444]

We never should have gone there in the first place.  If we wanted to attack the country where the 9/11 attacks were planned we should have invaded Germany.

[Phil1111 1,149]

3 hours ago, brenthutch said:

We never should have gone there in the first place.  If we wanted to attack the country where the 9/11 attacks were planned we should have invaded Germany.

Thanks for that. Once again your deep and thoughtful analysis with a foundation based upon all the facts. Is broadly respected.

[brenthutch 444]

8 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

Thanks for that. Once again your deep and thoughtful analysis with a foundation based upon all the facts. Is broadly respected.

More facts

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell

[gowlerk 2,249]

And the answer appears to be yes. When 20th anniversary of 9/11 rolls around the Taliban will be in complete control of Afghanistan. I can understand why the people there would want to see the end of what is essentially a puppet government installed by an invading army. But I don't envy them their fate. There are a lot of lessons to be learned and most likely forgotten once again for the west in general and the US in particular with this sad ending.

My feeling is that both Trump and Biden are correct in deciding it long past time to leave. And they both deserve some credit for making it happen.

[JoeWeber 2,823]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

And the answer appears to be yes. When 20th anniversary of 9/11 rolls around the Taliban will be in complete control of Afghanistan. I can understand why the people there would want to see the end of what is essentially a puppet government installed by an invading army. But I don't envy them their fate. There are a lot of lessons to be learned and most likely forgotten once again for the west in general and the US in particular with this sad ending.

My feeling is that both Trump and Biden are correct in deciding it long past time to leave. And they both deserve some credit for making it happen.

Already the heart string plucking is underway. Yes, the Taliban will make life miserable, and in some cases much shortened, for many. Innocents will die in masses, women will be enslaved, religious ignorance and intolerance will be the order of the day and misery will prevail. By any secular or western standard, conditions in Afghanistan under the Taliban will be beyond awful. The thing is that every Afghan soldier, every Afghan citizen and every Afghan politician knows that truth. 

If the Afghan citizenry and the Afghan Army aren't ready, able and willing to stand, fight, and die for their freedoms now, so be it. 

 

[yoink 321]

On 7/2/2021 at 1:43 PM, gowlerk said:

Will the Taliban have the keys in time for the 9/11 20th anniversary?

The west calls them terrorists. In their home country they’re basically “we the people”.

"Taliban take over Presidential Palace:

The Taliban are claiming to have taken over the presidential palace in Kabul.

President Ghani left the country earlier on Sunday - but the exact situation at the palace is still unclear."

 

and

 

 

LIVE

Afghan President Ghani flees country

 

So yeah, I'd say before 9/11. 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-58219963

[kallend 2,106]

This was inevitable.

The Taliban was on its last legs in Tora Bora in the Spring of 2003.  Then  GWB took his eyes off Afghanistan and invaded Iraq for no good reason. 

The puppet government in Kabul was not much different from the Vichy government in France.

[wmw999 2,534]

Nah, the taliban comes from religious fundamentalism;’it never went away. Other strains might have had better luck if we’d spent more time in Afghanistan early instead of heading over to fuck Iraq up, but Pakistan was arguably far more democratic 20 years ago than it is now. 
One can only change ones self; that’s true of countries, too. You can force behavior modification, but that doesn’t change what’s under. 
Wendy P. 

[gowlerk 2,249]

I have been hearing a lot about the price paid for this fruitless adventure. I have heard almost nothing about the estimated quarter million Afghan deaths.

[JerryBaumchen 1,436]

7 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I have been hearing a lot about the price paid for this fruitless adventure. I have heard almost nothing about the estimated quarter million Afghan deaths.

Hi Ken,

It is the cost of war.  2/3's of all deaths from the 6 Jun 44 invasion of France until Paris was liberated, were French citizens.

Jerry Baumchen

[yoink 321]

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-58219963

“Good morning and welcome - its a new day in Afghanistan, where the Taliban has claimed victory after seizing the capital Kabul.“

 

mission accomplished? 

[JoeWeber 2,823]

21 minutes ago, yoink said:

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-58219963

“Good morning and welcome - its a new day in Afghanistan, where the Taliban has claimed victory after seizing the capital Kabul.“

 

mission accomplished? 

Well that was fast. Were they escorted to the Presidential Palace by the Afghan Army in ex-US Army lorries? At the end of the day it is the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan. Or was I should qualify, and  99.7% of the population are adherents of Islam. Seems to me they've simply traded an ostensibly enlightened Islam for a darker version. Fine. Peace be with them.

[winsor 236]

13 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Nah, the taliban comes from religious fundamentalism;’it never went away. Other strains might have had better luck if we’d spent more time in Afghanistan early instead of heading over to fuck Iraq up, but Pakistan was arguably far more democratic 20 years ago than it is now. 
One can only change ones self; that’s true of countries, too. You can force behavior modification, but that doesn’t change what’s under. 
Wendy P. 

Jackson Browne's 'Fountain of Sorrow' comes to mind:

"And while the future's there for anyone to change, still you know it seems
It would be easier sometimes to change the past"

A show of hands, please - who didn't see this coming?

 

BSBD,

Winsor

[kallend 2,106]

4 hours ago, winsor said:

Jackson Browne's 'Fountain of Sorrow' comes to mind:

"And while the future's there for anyone to change, still you know it seems
It would be easier sometimes to change the past"

A show of hands, please - who didn't see this coming?

 

BSBD,

Winsor

There was a lesson to be learned in 1975, both by the US and by those who expected the US to be the world's policeman.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

15 minutes ago, kallend said:

There was a lesson to be learned in 1975, both by the US and by those who expected the US to be the world's policeman.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

There were lessons to be learned in both the 19th & 20th centuries.

"When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains."

 

http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poems_youngbrit.htm

[winsor 236]

1 hour ago, kallend said:

There was a lesson to be learned in 1975, both by the US and by those who expected the US to be the world's policeman.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Hey, let Saigons be bygones!

[murps2000 86]

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/08/afghanistan-your-fault/619769/
 

Interesting take in the Atlantic today

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

The RNC website has already purged the part praising the Orange Idiot for his 'peace deal' with the Taliban.

Of course.

Lots of stories out there about it, here's one:
https://www.rawstory.com/trump-afghanistan-2654680399/

[brenthutch 444]

I don’t know why they didn’t wait until the end of “fighting season” to initiate the withdrawal. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_fighting_season
 

The failure to appropriately react to the changes on the ground is unforgivable.

[jakee 1,563]

18 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

I don’t know why they didn’t wait until the end of “fighting season” to initiate the withdrawal. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_fighting_season

In the grand scheme of things another 1 winter of freedom before the Taliban took over doesn't make a huge amount of difference for Afghanistan.

Quote

The failure to appropriately react to the changes on the ground is unforgivable.

What has changed that wasn't inevitable?

[brenthutch 444]

5 minutes ago, jakee said:

In the grand scheme of things another 1 winter of freedom before the Taliban took over doesn't make a huge amount of difference for Afghanistan.

What has changed that wasn't inevitable?

The withdrawal could have taken place when the mountain passes and Taliban strongholds were snowbound and bought the time necessary to complete our withdrawal in a less chaotic manner than we are witnessing now.

[JerryBaumchen 1,436]

Hi folks,

Only in the GOP:  Boebert, who's pushed to end the 20-year-long war . . . Boebert opposed increasing aid to Afghans who worked with the US military.

GOP Rep. Lauren Boebert slams Biden's Afghanistan withdrawal but voted against visas for Afghan partners last month (msn.com)

Jerry Baumchen