Orange1 0 #1 April 30, 2006 Picking up from a thread in incidents debating about being in a spin after cutting away from a spinning main before deploying reserve and resultant line twists. How important is size (wingloading) vs type of canopy a factor in how dangerous line twists can be? I'm assuming that it is easier to kick out of line twists on a reserve vs a same size elliptical - is this correct? If so is there any wingloading for which line twists on a reserve could become a serious issue?Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #2 April 30, 2006 I have had a couple o reserve rides, luckly all from stable deployments, and cleanly opened. I have had linetwist on mains though and when they are bad..when the risers are twisted so tight that it pins your head down to your chest, cant see whats up. If your also spinning due to this situation it could be bad. I think wingloading could play a big role in this situation. Majority of reserves are F1-11, 7 cells. Unless I did a hop and pop from high altitude, I would not delay on pulling silver after a cutaway. YMMV. The time it takes to read your altimiter and get stable after a cutaway, could eat up the rest of your usuable altitude. Hopefully the wingloading on your reserve will be light enough that a PLF would suffice if your lines are twisted and not enough altitude to kick out, and flare._________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #3 April 30, 2006 I have probably suffered line twists on half of my (20) reserve rides. Most of the time the reserve solved its own line twists as I looked up at it. Reserves are inherently less prove to suffer from line twists because they are all rectangular and most are boring 7-cells. One TSO drop test requirement includes deliberately twisting lines - while packing - and counting how quickly the reserve untwists itself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #4 April 30, 2006 Quote Reserves are inherently less prove to suffer from line twists because they are all rectangular and most are boring 7-cells. Thanks - that's what i had figured. Does a really high WL change this at all though? (asking out of interest i am still light WL!!)Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #5 April 30, 2006 QuoteThanks - that's what i had figured. Does a really high WL change this at all though? (asking out of interest i am still light WL!!) I can't answer this for certainty, but i was loading my PDR113 at about 1.6:1 and i had a couple twists on opening the last time i had to use it. It virtually untwisted itself. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrBrant 0 #6 April 30, 2006 Quote Unless I did a hop and pop from high altitude, I would not delay on pulling silver after a cutaway. YMMV. I was thinking of this a little while ago. Why would you want to do a delay, even with a high-alt h&p? I would, personally, take a sub-terminal reserve deployment, and a LOOOOONG canopy ride down, rather than an (unnecessary) terminal opening on a reserve. The reserve is my last chance to live, and I want to do everything I can to make sure that canopy opens undamaged. Sure, you might lose the $80 freebag, but you just left your $2000 main up at 10k anyway... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #7 April 30, 2006 As long as it's a subterminal deployment, it should be ok. The issue of terminal deployments at high altitudes is the real issue, and that's why one should wait until a standard deployment altitude to pull if they're terminal up high.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #8 May 1, 2006 YMMV_________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 164 #9 May 1, 2006 QuotePicking up from a thread in incidents debating about being in a spin after cutting away from a spinning main before deploying reserve and resultant line twists. How important is size (wingloading) vs type of canopy a factor in how dangerous line twists can be? I'm assuming that it is easier to kick out of line twists on a reserve vs a same size elliptical - is this correct? If so is there any wingloading for which line twists on a reserve could become a serious issue? Addressing both sides of this: Getting stable, (especially a newbie) don't waste the altitude. GET IT OUT! Also, sub-terminal will be less likely to do nasty things to your reserve (last chance). Wing loading/line twists... Are heavily loaded more suseptable... not sure... remember reserves are typically F-111 and basic design. However it also seems that the more heavily loaded canopies are less survivable when things do not go well. Heavily loaded line twists tighten up quicker, lines and fabric are more heavily stressed, and in the extreme when it all goes to sh!t and its only a wad of matterial up there, I would want the biggest wad of matterial up there that I can get... just thoughts. JimAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 38 #10 May 2, 2006 Quote Why would you want to do a delay, even with a high-alt h&p? The only time I take a delay to get to terminal is a CRW cutaway after a wrap. Most of the time I'll track off to clear airspace and make sure I'm far away from those crazy folks who just tried to kill me :-) That being said, approximately half of my 16 reserve rides have been at terminal velocity, and its not a big deal. Admittedly I'm not a 240 lb guy on a 113 reserve however.... I weigh 130 and my smallest reserve is a 120... W Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 May 2, 2006 Lets see, on my last chop I was on my sport rig and it was due to spinning linetwists on my back going through 2k (1.9k really, but who's counting). Grab both, pull right, pull left. Just like that. I came out clean with out any linetwists and the opening wasn't bad either. My reserve is a PDr-176 that I load about 1.6-1.7. On the flip side, two of the 3 tandem reserve rides I've had I had linetwists on the reserve from spinning malfunctions. However, tandems are a whole different animal together.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #12 May 4, 2006 The theory is that canopies with lower aspect ratios, lower wingloadings, and any other variables that are skewed to offer gentler flying behavior will reduce the likelihood of line twists causing turns/spins, the difficulty getting out of them, and the rate of spin. I should note I used the words "theory", "reduce", and "likelihood". My personal feeling is that hitting the ground under a line-twisted reserve will feel a lot better than hitting the ground in freefall or even under a line-stretching reserve. And if all other things are held equal, lower wingloading would mean lower descent rate, which would mean more time to try and untwist and a lower impact speed when landing under line twists. I don't have any quantitation of example descent rates for line-twisted reserves of various wingloadings, so I can't say how _much_ better the landing would be. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fueler 0 #13 May 5, 2006 QuoteQuote . I would, personally, take a sub-terminal reserve deployment, and a LOOOOONG canopy ride down, rather than an (unnecessary) terminal opening on a reserve. The reserve is my last chance to live, and I want to do everything I can to make sure that canopy opens undamaged. Sure, you might lose the $80 freebag, but you just left your $2000 main up at 10k anyway... or...just ride your f-ed up mal down to a resonable altitude and then chop it. probably find your main, free bag and all that other good stuff **************************************** what!? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fcajump 164 #14 May 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote . I would, personally, take a sub-terminal reserve deployment, and a LOOOOONG canopy ride down, rather than an (unnecessary) terminal opening on a reserve. The reserve is my last chance to live, and I want to do everything I can to make sure that canopy opens undamaged. Sure, you might lose the $80 freebag, but you just left your $2000 main up at 10k anyway... or...just ride your f-ed up mal down to a resonable altitude and then chop it. probably find your main, free bag and all that other good stuff Yea... sounds like a good idea... loss of alt awareness, increasing spin rate, uncontrolled decent over other canopies, uncontrolled drift into unsuitable landing areas... hmmm... maybe not a good idea after all... All in all, I think a quick assessment and immediate implementation of EP. From my cut-away experience, almost all of my cut-mains landed well before I did, so keeping an eye on where they went while deciding where I am going is not a problem. BTW - DO NOT EVER try to catch your main. This is a sure way to have a very bad day. JimAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 150 #15 May 6, 2006 No way Jose.....your reserve is packed in a freebag and has a slider....so the altitude you deploy at is pretty irrelevant in an emergency situation.....as long as its high enough to survive.... Once you've chopped that main, get the reserve out.....losing gear is irrelevant....as is a slightly harder reserve opening..... Plenty of people who now live in the cemetery delayed after chopping..... Your little signature line sums your post up quite nicely....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #16 May 6, 2006 QuoteAs long as it's a subterminal deployment, it should be ok. The issue of terminal deployments at high altitudes is the real issue, and that's why one should wait until a standard deployment altitude to pull if they're terminal up high. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The difference between opening shock at 10,000 feet and 1,000 feet is insignificant. When in doubt whip out your reserve ... the higher the better. For example, during my last reserve ride, I "saddled out" at 3,000 feet. That gave me lots of time to follow my main and freebag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #17 May 6, 2006 or...just ride your f-ed up mal' down to a reasonable altitude and then chop it. probably find your main, free bag and all that other good stuff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have only done that once. It was a horse shoe malfunction that I converted into a bag lock. By 9,000', I knew that my main was mal'd beyond repair. I dragged it down to 3,000' where I cut it away and deployed my reserve. It all depends upon how fast your malfunctioned main is spinning. A badly spinning main will dis-orient you, warp your sense of timing, warp your altitude awareness and might even render you unconscious. When in doubt ... whip out your reserve ... the higher the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MB38 0 #18 May 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteAs long as it's a subterminal deployment, it should be ok. The issue of terminal deployments at high altitudes is the real issue, and that's why one should wait until a standard deployment altitude to pull if they're terminal up high. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The difference between opening shock at 10,000 feet and 1,000 feet is insignificant. When in doubt whip out your reserve ... the higher the better. For example, during my last reserve ride, I "saddled out" at 3,000 feet. That gave me lots of time to follow my main and freebag.Are you sure? I've read many a thread where the dangers of a terminal reserve deployment at high altitudes have been warned against. Not high-speed premature deployments while freeflying, I'm talking about normal belly-to-earth deployments that ended in broken lines and a mess of other complications due to altitude. I'll do a search to try and find the threads I'm talking about.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 150 #19 May 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteAs long as it's a subterminal deployment, it should be ok. The issue of terminal deployments at high altitudes is the real issue, and that's why one should wait until a standard deployment altitude to pull if they're terminal up high. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The difference between opening shock at 10,000 feet and 1,000 feet is insignificant. When in doubt whip out your reserve ... the higher the better. For example, during my last reserve ride, I "saddled out" at 3,000 feet. That gave me lots of time to follow my main and freebag.Are you sure? I've read many a thread where the dangers of a terminal reserve deployment at high altitudes have been warned against. Not high-speed premature deployments while freeflying, I'm talking about normal belly-to-earth deployments that ended in broken lines and a mess of other complications due to altitude. I'll do a search to try and find the threads I'm talking about. Terminal deployments while freeflying could result in broken lines and blown up canopies. Terminal deployments of a reserve in a belly to earth normal deployment would VERY RARELY result in damage to anything..... Your search for threads about this situation will, I'm sure find very little. As you are a skydiver with limited experience, I think you should refrain from posting this nonsense on a forum where people with limited experience like yourself could possibly believe this stuff, departing from correct emergency procedures, and killing themselves. Emergency procedures have evolved over many years as the result of often bitter experience..... Instructors teach these procedures world wide, and they have been proven correct in 99.9% of the situations that have arisen. Getting away from a CRW wrap is probably the only time you would make a short delay after cutting away, but you normally have extra altitude up your sleeve to start with. The correct procedure is to cut away and immediately pull the reserve..... If you really don't know what you are talking about it is better to say nothing. Don't post rumour or myth. Because some poor sap is likely to believe it..... And die.......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest 1010 #20 May 6, 2006 QuoteAs long as it's a subterminal deployment, it should be ok. The issue of terminal deployments at high altitudes is the real issue, and that's why one should wait until a standard deployment altitude to pull if they're terminal up high. I'm new but think the recent fuss made in threads here about terminal reserve openings at belly speeds has been seriously overstated. Last fall I spent $30 (40 now) and jumped a PDR 176 demo-as-a-main, exit weight 230 lbs, which PD later assured me had the same size slider etc as a "normal" reserve. (I had less than 50 jumps then, and I now have a PDR176 in my rig at 210 exit wt.) First jump tossed at 10k a little off the hill (didn't get full alti), that didn't hurt so next jump tossed at 9k from full alti, next jump at 5k from full alti. The openings were brisk, but not hard. (I got hit hard - dazed, "WTF just happened?" hard - by a student TRI 190 a month prior to jumping the reserve.) IMHO you should demo jump a reserve. There is no need to speculate about reserve openings when you can get them in person with a demo canopy. (edit: obelixtim beat me to it) You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MB38 0 #21 May 6, 2006 Quote Your search for threads about this situation will, I'm sure find very little. As you are a skydiver with limited experience, I think you should refrain from posting this nonsense on a forum where people with limited experience like yourself could possibly believe this stuff, departing from correct emergency procedures, and killing themselves. While your point is wholly accepted and respected, it leaves me in a peculiar situation. When all I'm doing is relaying something that I've learned on the forums, how can I know if it's good information or not? I generally judge the source of the information based on jump numbers and post count, but sometimes that's not enough. I specifically remember reading the very point that I made above. When I originally found it, I was so surprised that I took note. The general point made was that if one finds themselves terminal at a high altitude with only a reserve on their back that they should take it down to a standard deployment altitude [say 5,000 and below] before pulling. Of course one should deploy their reserve immediately after cutting away from a malfunction - this only applies if something has prevented that. There was no negative reaction to the post so I filed it away in my growing library of knowledge as something to keep in mind should I ever find myself in the situation. I, of course, cannot find the thread... though I specifically remember the post. For argument's sake at this point I may as well have made it up. Now judging by how negative the reaction in this thread is, I'm sure I've made a mistake. Perhaps I misread it, misremembered it or the post was overlooked when it was originally made. Either way, I'm truly mortified that I've posted misinformation on these forums. I really do fully appreciate your point that somebody could take the misinformation in my post as the truth... because that's exactly what I did with somebody else's post. So my brain, having read the information I read in the mystery thread, saw somebody's post in this thread about pulling high at terminal and freaked out. That's not right, I have the answer! I read it earlier! I'd better pass that information on and potentially save somebody's ass... after all, that's the point of these forums. So that's why I said something. If I thought I didn't know the answer, i wouldn't have tried to post it. But since I thought I knew the right answer and had no way to know that I was wrong, I posted. So thank you for catching me on this one. I made a mistake and I am sorry for it. The good news is that the error has been corrected and the truth has been posted. I assume it's the truth because you have a lot of jumps and I don't. The same qualifications that I used the last time I read information on the subject. That's the peculiar situation I alluded to above... how do I know what information to trust and what to ignore? In this case, I'll trust the info in this thread. Several people have posted contrary to what I think I remember, so I'm wrong. Anyway, I'm still typing. I think my point's somewhere in there. I do actually appreciate it, I hope this post doesn't come across as cynical. [And I do plan on jumping a reserve as a main once I am allowed to do so. The largest demo reserve my DZ has is a 176R. Since I'm still on 190 mains, it's too small to safely jump. Of course with that said, the rig that I rent from them has a 176R in it. I suppose that's another point altogether.]I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Guest 1010 #22 May 7, 2006 >There was no negative reaction to the post so I filed it away in my growing library of knowledge as something to keep in mind should I ever find myself in the situation. I remember the thread(s?) about deploying high and disagreed, but tend not to comment on things here since I'm a FNG. This is the internet. Better to hang out and talk to people at the dz, judge for yourself, and develop a common sense for handling all sorts of things. In this case, I'd say more alti mo' better. What if the reserve totals? Another 30 seconds to pull shi*t out of your container might be needed. Others reading your stuff, are ALSO reading from the internet, and you do have your jump numbers posted, no worries, though it is obviously a good thing to say when your opinion has changed on something (but that's also the point of jump numbers here - our opinions change all the time as we learn; it is different when Bill Booth changes his mind about something). .02 You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Orange1 0 #23 May 7, 2006 MB, IIRC the main factor was not so much altitude but either freefly speeds and/or overloading the reserve. To everyone who has answered, thanks - fwiw I have no intention of delaying a reserve pull, it had just never occurred to me before that line twists on a reserve might be a serious problem - and from the answers I have received (incl a useful doc emailed) it seems that they wouldn't be any more of a problem than the ones I experienced on my student canopies.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #24 May 7, 2006 The major problem with people deploying high with a reserve whether FF or belly flying is that more and more people are overloading their reserve. When you are already at the ragged edge of common sense adding 10,000 feet to the mix might be all it takes. But you are talking terminal deployment. If it is a premature deployment of you main and the main goes to shit, cutaway and fire the reserve. You will not be near terminal. If it is a premature fire on the reserve you better hope that you are not way over the max on the canopy. But keep in mind, any canopy can come apart on any jump. That’s why it is so important to know your gear, know its design limits and take care of it as if your life depends on it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #25 May 7, 2006 reply]Are you sure? I've read many a thread where the dangers of a terminal reserve deployment at high altitudes have been warned against. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This depends upon your definition of "high altitude." There is little difference between air density at 1,000 feet (29.92 inches of mercury in ICAO Standard atmosphere) and 10,000 feet (19.92). However there are dramatic differences at 20,000 (9.92) or 30,000. That is the military definition of "high altitude." Few civilians jump that high because of the added expense and complexity of oxygen, etc. Thinner atmosphere above 20,000' results in far faster freefall, and that translates to higher airspeed. That higher airspeed causes harder openings that bruise jumpers and tear canopies. In conclusion, 99 percent of the time, you are best off pulling a reserve ripcord one second after cutting away. Delaying a reserve pull creates more problems than it solves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
fcajump 164 #14 May 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuote . I would, personally, take a sub-terminal reserve deployment, and a LOOOOONG canopy ride down, rather than an (unnecessary) terminal opening on a reserve. The reserve is my last chance to live, and I want to do everything I can to make sure that canopy opens undamaged. Sure, you might lose the $80 freebag, but you just left your $2000 main up at 10k anyway... or...just ride your f-ed up mal down to a resonable altitude and then chop it. probably find your main, free bag and all that other good stuff Yea... sounds like a good idea... loss of alt awareness, increasing spin rate, uncontrolled decent over other canopies, uncontrolled drift into unsuitable landing areas... hmmm... maybe not a good idea after all... All in all, I think a quick assessment and immediate implementation of EP. From my cut-away experience, almost all of my cut-mains landed well before I did, so keeping an eye on where they went while deciding where I am going is not a problem. BTW - DO NOT EVER try to catch your main. This is a sure way to have a very bad day. JimAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites obelixtim 150 #15 May 6, 2006 No way Jose.....your reserve is packed in a freebag and has a slider....so the altitude you deploy at is pretty irrelevant in an emergency situation.....as long as its high enough to survive.... Once you've chopped that main, get the reserve out.....losing gear is irrelevant....as is a slightly harder reserve opening..... Plenty of people who now live in the cemetery delayed after chopping..... Your little signature line sums your post up quite nicely....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #16 May 6, 2006 QuoteAs long as it's a subterminal deployment, it should be ok. The issue of terminal deployments at high altitudes is the real issue, and that's why one should wait until a standard deployment altitude to pull if they're terminal up high. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The difference between opening shock at 10,000 feet and 1,000 feet is insignificant. When in doubt whip out your reserve ... the higher the better. For example, during my last reserve ride, I "saddled out" at 3,000 feet. That gave me lots of time to follow my main and freebag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #17 May 6, 2006 or...just ride your f-ed up mal' down to a reasonable altitude and then chop it. probably find your main, free bag and all that other good stuff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have only done that once. It was a horse shoe malfunction that I converted into a bag lock. By 9,000', I knew that my main was mal'd beyond repair. I dragged it down to 3,000' where I cut it away and deployed my reserve. It all depends upon how fast your malfunctioned main is spinning. A badly spinning main will dis-orient you, warp your sense of timing, warp your altitude awareness and might even render you unconscious. When in doubt ... whip out your reserve ... the higher the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #15 May 6, 2006 No way Jose.....your reserve is packed in a freebag and has a slider....so the altitude you deploy at is pretty irrelevant in an emergency situation.....as long as its high enough to survive.... Once you've chopped that main, get the reserve out.....losing gear is irrelevant....as is a slightly harder reserve opening..... Plenty of people who now live in the cemetery delayed after chopping..... Your little signature line sums your post up quite nicely....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #16 May 6, 2006 QuoteAs long as it's a subterminal deployment, it should be ok. The issue of terminal deployments at high altitudes is the real issue, and that's why one should wait until a standard deployment altitude to pull if they're terminal up high. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The difference between opening shock at 10,000 feet and 1,000 feet is insignificant. When in doubt whip out your reserve ... the higher the better. For example, during my last reserve ride, I "saddled out" at 3,000 feet. That gave me lots of time to follow my main and freebag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #17 May 6, 2006 or...just ride your f-ed up mal' down to a reasonable altitude and then chop it. probably find your main, free bag and all that other good stuff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have only done that once. It was a horse shoe malfunction that I converted into a bag lock. By 9,000', I knew that my main was mal'd beyond repair. I dragged it down to 3,000' where I cut it away and deployed my reserve. It all depends upon how fast your malfunctioned main is spinning. A badly spinning main will dis-orient you, warp your sense of timing, warp your altitude awareness and might even render you unconscious. When in doubt ... whip out your reserve ... the higher the better. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #18 May 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteAs long as it's a subterminal deployment, it should be ok. The issue of terminal deployments at high altitudes is the real issue, and that's why one should wait until a standard deployment altitude to pull if they're terminal up high. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The difference between opening shock at 10,000 feet and 1,000 feet is insignificant. When in doubt whip out your reserve ... the higher the better. For example, during my last reserve ride, I "saddled out" at 3,000 feet. That gave me lots of time to follow my main and freebag.Are you sure? I've read many a thread where the dangers of a terminal reserve deployment at high altitudes have been warned against. Not high-speed premature deployments while freeflying, I'm talking about normal belly-to-earth deployments that ended in broken lines and a mess of other complications due to altitude. I'll do a search to try and find the threads I'm talking about.I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 150 #19 May 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteAs long as it's a subterminal deployment, it should be ok. The issue of terminal deployments at high altitudes is the real issue, and that's why one should wait until a standard deployment altitude to pull if they're terminal up high. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The difference between opening shock at 10,000 feet and 1,000 feet is insignificant. When in doubt whip out your reserve ... the higher the better. For example, during my last reserve ride, I "saddled out" at 3,000 feet. That gave me lots of time to follow my main and freebag.Are you sure? I've read many a thread where the dangers of a terminal reserve deployment at high altitudes have been warned against. Not high-speed premature deployments while freeflying, I'm talking about normal belly-to-earth deployments that ended in broken lines and a mess of other complications due to altitude. I'll do a search to try and find the threads I'm talking about. Terminal deployments while freeflying could result in broken lines and blown up canopies. Terminal deployments of a reserve in a belly to earth normal deployment would VERY RARELY result in damage to anything..... Your search for threads about this situation will, I'm sure find very little. As you are a skydiver with limited experience, I think you should refrain from posting this nonsense on a forum where people with limited experience like yourself could possibly believe this stuff, departing from correct emergency procedures, and killing themselves. Emergency procedures have evolved over many years as the result of often bitter experience..... Instructors teach these procedures world wide, and they have been proven correct in 99.9% of the situations that have arisen. Getting away from a CRW wrap is probably the only time you would make a short delay after cutting away, but you normally have extra altitude up your sleeve to start with. The correct procedure is to cut away and immediately pull the reserve..... If you really don't know what you are talking about it is better to say nothing. Don't post rumour or myth. Because some poor sap is likely to believe it..... And die.......My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #20 May 6, 2006 QuoteAs long as it's a subterminal deployment, it should be ok. The issue of terminal deployments at high altitudes is the real issue, and that's why one should wait until a standard deployment altitude to pull if they're terminal up high. I'm new but think the recent fuss made in threads here about terminal reserve openings at belly speeds has been seriously overstated. Last fall I spent $30 (40 now) and jumped a PDR 176 demo-as-a-main, exit weight 230 lbs, which PD later assured me had the same size slider etc as a "normal" reserve. (I had less than 50 jumps then, and I now have a PDR176 in my rig at 210 exit wt.) First jump tossed at 10k a little off the hill (didn't get full alti), that didn't hurt so next jump tossed at 9k from full alti, next jump at 5k from full alti. The openings were brisk, but not hard. (I got hit hard - dazed, "WTF just happened?" hard - by a student TRI 190 a month prior to jumping the reserve.) IMHO you should demo jump a reserve. There is no need to speculate about reserve openings when you can get them in person with a demo canopy. (edit: obelixtim beat me to it) You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MB38 0 #21 May 6, 2006 Quote Your search for threads about this situation will, I'm sure find very little. As you are a skydiver with limited experience, I think you should refrain from posting this nonsense on a forum where people with limited experience like yourself could possibly believe this stuff, departing from correct emergency procedures, and killing themselves. While your point is wholly accepted and respected, it leaves me in a peculiar situation. When all I'm doing is relaying something that I've learned on the forums, how can I know if it's good information or not? I generally judge the source of the information based on jump numbers and post count, but sometimes that's not enough. I specifically remember reading the very point that I made above. When I originally found it, I was so surprised that I took note. The general point made was that if one finds themselves terminal at a high altitude with only a reserve on their back that they should take it down to a standard deployment altitude [say 5,000 and below] before pulling. Of course one should deploy their reserve immediately after cutting away from a malfunction - this only applies if something has prevented that. There was no negative reaction to the post so I filed it away in my growing library of knowledge as something to keep in mind should I ever find myself in the situation. I, of course, cannot find the thread... though I specifically remember the post. For argument's sake at this point I may as well have made it up. Now judging by how negative the reaction in this thread is, I'm sure I've made a mistake. Perhaps I misread it, misremembered it or the post was overlooked when it was originally made. Either way, I'm truly mortified that I've posted misinformation on these forums. I really do fully appreciate your point that somebody could take the misinformation in my post as the truth... because that's exactly what I did with somebody else's post. So my brain, having read the information I read in the mystery thread, saw somebody's post in this thread about pulling high at terminal and freaked out. That's not right, I have the answer! I read it earlier! I'd better pass that information on and potentially save somebody's ass... after all, that's the point of these forums. So that's why I said something. If I thought I didn't know the answer, i wouldn't have tried to post it. But since I thought I knew the right answer and had no way to know that I was wrong, I posted. So thank you for catching me on this one. I made a mistake and I am sorry for it. The good news is that the error has been corrected and the truth has been posted. I assume it's the truth because you have a lot of jumps and I don't. The same qualifications that I used the last time I read information on the subject. That's the peculiar situation I alluded to above... how do I know what information to trust and what to ignore? In this case, I'll trust the info in this thread. Several people have posted contrary to what I think I remember, so I'm wrong. Anyway, I'm still typing. I think my point's somewhere in there. I do actually appreciate it, I hope this post doesn't come across as cynical. [And I do plan on jumping a reserve as a main once I am allowed to do so. The largest demo reserve my DZ has is a 176R. Since I'm still on 190 mains, it's too small to safely jump. Of course with that said, the rig that I rent from them has a 176R in it. I suppose that's another point altogether.]I really don't know what I'm talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest 1010 #22 May 7, 2006 >There was no negative reaction to the post so I filed it away in my growing library of knowledge as something to keep in mind should I ever find myself in the situation. I remember the thread(s?) about deploying high and disagreed, but tend not to comment on things here since I'm a FNG. This is the internet. Better to hang out and talk to people at the dz, judge for yourself, and develop a common sense for handling all sorts of things. In this case, I'd say more alti mo' better. What if the reserve totals? Another 30 seconds to pull shi*t out of your container might be needed. Others reading your stuff, are ALSO reading from the internet, and you do have your jump numbers posted, no worries, though it is obviously a good thing to say when your opinion has changed on something (but that's also the point of jump numbers here - our opinions change all the time as we learn; it is different when Bill Booth changes his mind about something). .02 You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #23 May 7, 2006 MB, IIRC the main factor was not so much altitude but either freefly speeds and/or overloading the reserve. To everyone who has answered, thanks - fwiw I have no intention of delaying a reserve pull, it had just never occurred to me before that line twists on a reserve might be a serious problem - and from the answers I have received (incl a useful doc emailed) it seems that they wouldn't be any more of a problem than the ones I experienced on my student canopies.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #24 May 7, 2006 The major problem with people deploying high with a reserve whether FF or belly flying is that more and more people are overloading their reserve. When you are already at the ragged edge of common sense adding 10,000 feet to the mix might be all it takes. But you are talking terminal deployment. If it is a premature deployment of you main and the main goes to shit, cutaway and fire the reserve. You will not be near terminal. If it is a premature fire on the reserve you better hope that you are not way over the max on the canopy. But keep in mind, any canopy can come apart on any jump. That’s why it is so important to know your gear, know its design limits and take care of it as if your life depends on it.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #25 May 7, 2006 reply]Are you sure? I've read many a thread where the dangers of a terminal reserve deployment at high altitudes have been warned against. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This depends upon your definition of "high altitude." There is little difference between air density at 1,000 feet (29.92 inches of mercury in ICAO Standard atmosphere) and 10,000 feet (19.92). However there are dramatic differences at 20,000 (9.92) or 30,000. That is the military definition of "high altitude." Few civilians jump that high because of the added expense and complexity of oxygen, etc. Thinner atmosphere above 20,000' results in far faster freefall, and that translates to higher airspeed. That higher airspeed causes harder openings that bruise jumpers and tear canopies. In conclusion, 99 percent of the time, you are best off pulling a reserve ripcord one second after cutting away. Delaying a reserve pull creates more problems than it solves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
