Bridle wrap EP

[tabouare 25]

My bridle wrapped around my foot a month ago following a regular jump and the Friday Freakout video was posted yesterday.
When I felt the tug on my foot, I put both hands on my handles and decided not to chop my main and went straight to reserve. 

The rational behind this decision was that even if I chop, my main will still be attached to me.
I figured my d-bag would be either still in the container or close to it.
My risers were still in the container well tucked around the reserve and I didn't want another longer potential snag point.
Since I was wrapped, I figured that if it were to entangled, I would want as much fabric over my head as possible.

Obviously what I did for my situation was the correct thing to do (besides wrapping myself ) and I walked away without injury beside muscles and ligaments pain.

The official EP for this situation is to cut the main, clear the risers then pull reserve
I don't agree with this as I think you will trail more stuff behind that can prevent a clean reserve deployment

I'm interested to know what you would do in the same situation and your explanation to chop or not.
 

Don't watch the video if you're sensitive

 

[Binary93 65]

I'd chop the main. If the risers are free, the canopy can't inflate.
I'm only hypothesizing now about could've/would've/should've (note I have only ~400 jumps), but because you didn't chop it immediately, you allowed it to inflate, spin, and get risers entangled into that ball of $h!t which is why it remained inflated even later after you chopped. If you had chopped it immediately and cleared the risers, it would hopefully hang only on the bridle/PC and wouldn't interfere with the flight as much.

[BIGUN 1,317]

17 hours ago, tabouare said:

The official EP for this situation is to cut the main, clear the risers then pull reserve
I don't agree with this as I think you will trail more stuff behind that can prevent a clean reserve deployment

The reason for the EP is to prevent one from firing their reserve into a horseshoe malfunction. 

Start at time; 3:31

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtpCPD4rQoQ

IMO - you were very lucky that you didn't have a horseshoe. 

BTW, wear a knife.  

[sundevil777 102]

7 hours ago, Binary93 said:

I'd chop the main. If the risers are free, the canopy can't inflate.
I'm only hypothesizing now about could've/would've/should've (note I have only ~400 jumps), but because you didn't chop it immediately, you allowed it to inflate, spin, and get risers entangled into that ball of $h!t which is why it remained inflated even later after you chopped. If you had chopped it immediately and cleared the risers, it would hopefully hang only on the bridle/PC and wouldn't interfere with the flight as much.

Of course the canopy can inflate. It depends on how much force it takes to clear the risers. Cutting away and clearing the risers first could take the rest of a person's life.

The landing could have been gentle. The trouble with the canopy trailing from the foot would have been minimized by just taking control of the reserve canopy and going into fairly deep brakes. Slow your airspeed and the canopy would not have so much drag. Even if a person lands that way with little to no flare, it would have been better than the unguided crash.

Edited August 29, 2021 by sundevil777

[mark 107]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

BTW, wear a knife.  

This rig comes with a MLW-mounted hook knife standard.

[tabouare 25]

6 hours ago, BIGUN said:

The reason for the EP is to prevent one from firing their reserve into a horseshoe malfunction.

BTW, wear a knife.  

Makes sense but usually a horseshoe happens higher up and you have more time to deal with it.

Like Mark said, the rig came standard with a hook knife. A very shitty one. I replaced it with a mystic (flew away during a group jump) then with a Dakine. 

The problem with most the hook knives on skydiving rigs is that they have a floppy fabric handle and you need to reposition your hand to use it. It's very easy to drop as demonstrated during my malfunction. 

My recommendation is to have 2 knives on you. Gerber and FKM-1 solve the need to reposition your hand and are compact. I'm sure others are available on the market that fits the bill. 

[AYY_BBY 0]

Hey, could I get links to the two hook knives that you recommend please?

[meteora 2]

https://westerwings.de/shop/fkm-1-kappmesser-2/

That's the FKM-1. A friend of mine makes them in Germany. They also made a video to compare it with other skydiving knives:

 

[timski 80]

On 8/29/2021 at 9:46 AM, BIGUN said:

 

BTW, wear a knife.  

4, but who's counting?!! 

[tabouare 25]

17 hours ago, AYY_BBY said:

Hey, could I get links to the two hook knives that you recommend please?

Amazon for the Gerber

[raftman 12]

Just don't get lazy at pull time.  IMO this could have been prevented with a more aggressive throw out.

[tabouare 25]

48 minutes ago, raftman said:

Just don't get lazy at pull time.  IMO this could have been prevented with a more aggressive throw out.

Lol no, I soon as I touched the locking tab, the bridle got sucked behind me. BOC is in good condition. Body position is to blame here. Bigger burble, feet close to rig, arm release at 45 degrees, etc... Extracted frames are consecutive 1/30s. 

Even though it's the natural thing to do, I don't need people to analyze what happened. I know what happened and discussed it with many people. You can read the description from the video to see where my mind was.

I would like to know in this circumstance, would you cut before or after pulling reserve. Pros and cons.

I realize that depending on who you give this opinion, the answer will change. I wouldn't want to confuse a student compared to someone more experienced. 

[dudeman17 340]

3 hours ago, raftman said:

Just don't get lazy at pull time.  IMO this could have been prevented with a more aggressive throw out.

 

2 hours ago, tabouare said:

Lol no

 

lol yes - see pics 4 & 5 of your photo sequence

 

2 hours ago, tabouare said:

soon as I touched the locking tab, the bridle got sucked behind me

 

then better packing too

 

2 hours ago, tabouare said:

I don't need people to analyze what happened

 

yes you do

 

2 hours ago, tabouare said:

I don't need people to analyze

 

then we'll just wait for your ash dive

 

2 hours ago, tabouare said:

see where my mind was

 

I think we can tell

[raftman 12]

I stand by my comment and wouldn't  consider this a laughing matter.  I was taught to release the pilot chute with the arm fully extended.   I also jump with a hook knife, would rather have it & not need it than need it & not have it.

[BMAC615 209]

For context, SLJM; AFFI; TI; thousands of jumps: cut away and then go to reserve. (I like to think) I would have also kept reserve brakes stowed until finished sorting out the entanglement.

Also, how do you fold your PC & bridle? This data point is of great interest to me.

Edited September 1, 2021 by BMAC615

[BIGUN 1,317]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:09 PM, tabouare said:

Makes sense but usually a horseshoe happens higher up and you have more time to deal with it.

You have the rest of your life to deal with it properly.

On 8/30/2021 at 4:43 PM, tabouare said:

You can read the description from the video to see where my mind was.

(The snag) Out of Sequence Emergency Procedures By not following the intended sequence for emergency procedures (cutaway first, then pull reserve) this jumper may have contributed to the process through which the main entangled around their foot. Having the reserve out, before cutting away, eliminated the possibility of the main having a chance to unsnag itself when the jumper went back into freefall for a moment.

On 8/28/2021 at 3:34 PM, tabouare said:

I'm interested to know what you would do in the same situation and your explanation to chop or not.

The emergency procedures and BSR's were written in the blood of others. Chop.

[sfzombie13 324]

this is interesting.  i hadn't thought about it before reading the last line in that comment, but i have been jumping for 25 years.  due to various detours, i just got my a in 2019 and now have about 140 jumps and have yet to have my cutaway.  the thing is, i was taught one hand on each handle, and have practiced that for those same 25 years.  i have wondered about the horseshoe and whether to cutaway first, but only a few times.  i sincerely hope that i am right and that if i ever have a bag lock, pilot chute in tow, horseshoe, or any other high speed mal that i would not hesitate my ep's so that i could process if i have to change them.  i think that i would just look and grab both handles and pull them in sequence.  i hope i have the forethought to tuck them inside my shirt, but that is secondary and not that significant. 

the only possible scenario i can see that would be better off not disconnecting the main first would be a broken reserve of some sort where you need the main's extra drag to slow you down.  are there any others?  what is the advantage to be gained over having the main still there?  i would think that with a hook knife you could clear an entanglement, at least enough to save your life, but maybe not, i am too new relatively to have much of an opinion. 

[Chris__ 1]

Asking as someone who is very inexperienced: Is there no room for trying to get the bridle off your foot before going to the emergency procedures?

[JerryBaumchen 1,365]

11 minutes ago, Chris__ said:

Asking as someone who is very inexperienced: Is there no room for trying to get the bridle off your foot before going to the emergency procedures?

Hi Chris,

As was said by J. Scott Hamilton, while writing the annual fatality report many, many years ago:  'The worst kind of malfunction is a high-speed malfunction.'

You run out of sky before you realize it.  

Although, with almost everyone wearing modern AAD's, this is no longer that type of problem.  Of course, at that point, the decision to cutaway or not is decided for you.

Jerry Baumchen

[Chris__ 1]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Chris,

As was said by J. Scott Hamilton, while writing the annual fatality report many, many years ago:  'The worst kind of malfunction is a high-speed malfunction.'

You run out of sky before you realize it.  

Although, with almost everyone wearing modern AAD's, this is no longer that type of problem.  Of course, at that point, the decision to cutaway or not is decided for you.

Jerry Baumchen

Hi Jerry!

Thanks for highlighting these points. I guess it cannot be said often enough.

But still.... Hmmm.....  You wouldn't just try to quickly shake it off? I mean - maybe it wasn't tangled into a complicated knot at all, maybe just a loose round or two around the foot.

[JerryBaumchen 1,365]

1 hour ago, Chris__ said:

Hi Jerry!

Thanks for highlighting these points. I guess it cannot be said often enough.

But still.... Hmmm.....  You wouldn't just try to quickly shake it off? I mean - maybe it wasn't tangled into a complicated knot at all, maybe just a loose round or two around the foot.

Hi Chris,

To each his own. 

I still say:  You run out of sky before you realize it. 

Jerry Baumchen

[BMAC615 209]

3 hours ago, Chris__ said:

Hi Jerry!

Thanks for highlighting these points. I guess it cannot be said often enough.

But still.... Hmmm.....  You wouldn't just try to quickly shake it off? I mean - maybe it wasn't tangled into a complicated knot at all, maybe just a loose round or two around the foot.

You pitch at 3,500 ft. Three seconds later it clicks in your brain something is wrong. You are at 3,000 ft. You will reach your hard deck in three seconds and your AAD will fire in twelve seconds. How many seconds do you spend trying to clear it? How long will it take to successfully pull your cutaway and reserve handles?

[BIGUN 1,317]

13 hours ago, Chris__ said:

Asking as someone who is very inexperienced: Is there no room for trying to get the bridle off your foot before going to the emergency procedures?

No. You'll be sacrificing altitude and potentially body position. Once your bran goes, "Oh shit!" The time for creativity and in-flight rigging are over. Ingrain the EP's in the video in your mind and your muscle memory. Others have paid a considerable price for the lessons we learned.    

[pchapman 279]

Generally emergency procedures may assume that you've already made "one try" to fix the issue, and that means one short try. Can't get PC out of pouch? Try once more, but then go to emergency procedures.

I would tend to stick with that "one try" idea for an entanglement. With the usual warnings about how people can stretch "one try" out way too long.

However, I haven't actually spotted anything on bridle entanglements in the USPA SIM (but I'm not really familiar with it), only more generic "out of sequence" deployments, which it kind of ends up being if the bag is out but PC bridle wrapped around a foot.

The SIM basically says for premature container opening to " First, attempt to deploy the main pilot chute for no more than two tries or two seconds, whichever comes first", then cutaway and use reserve.  (5-1 Skydiving Emergencies)  Huh, "two tries" in there! Well, yeah that works with the qualifying statements but I suspect most instructors would just say "one good try" or similar.

For pilot chutes in tow, the SIM does allow 'the two methods' -- cutting away or not cutting away first.

And for "partial malfunctions" in general, for all the many many varieties of 'container open but no good chute', the instructions are just to cut away and go to reserve.

So, are there specific recommendations about a bridle entanglement somewhere? (Not just from the USPA)

They do exist for things like tandems, but in that case the entanglement with the drogue bridle normally happens shortly after exit at altitude, so one can afford to try to fix it for 10 seconds like the UPT Sigma tandem manual says!

Skydiving organizations do expect a jumper to try to fix some entanglements -- like with a camera helmet -- Otherwise, why would any organization bother with all the recommendations to have a cutaway system for the helmet!

The Aussie APF's great malfunction video series, for horseshoes, just says to cutaway and deploy the reserve  -- with the video of the the test jumper doing that, but with little tension on the main risers [Edit: fixed from 'reserve risers'], the reserve fires into the mess -- but clears it. (Even with a tersh, there's a fun jump...) I only skimmed the video but didn't see a specific Entanglement mal.

One thing I wonder about entanglements is what to do with the RSL -- as that will fire the reserve as one cuts away before pulling the reserve handle, if the main risers are tensioned and clear the rig. Does anyone address that? Does having a second of time between cutaway and firing the reserve improve the outcomes in case of an entanglement?

The Sigma tandem manual these days has stuff on releasing the RSL first before cutting away, when dealing with various messes behind one's back -- but again, their emergency procedures tend to happen at a higher altitude. The USPA SIM does have a section (5-3) where it lists all the ways that an RSL can complicate procedures in the event of an emergency..... but does it actually go through those messy scenarios and what to do about them anywhere??

With a high speed entanglement in regular skydiving, time is very short, and those RSL tabs may not be easy to find in freefall quickly. I figure theoretically it would be better to release the RSL first but in practical terms it is hard to do in a short "one try" time period...

Edited September 2, 2021 by pchapman

[wmw999 2,452]

To me, an entanglement is like a pilot chute in tow. There is no perfect answer; people have died who didn’t cut away, and people have died who did. If there isn’t a good way to fix it, then you have to invest extra effort in preventing it.

Wendy P.