Rich Winstock Swoop Incident Cover-Up

[lyosha 50]

bump.

[BillyVance 34]

How long has it been since the accident and has Rich ever owned up to his fuck-up?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[Krip 2]

BillyVance

How long has it been since the accident and has Rich ever owned up to his fuck-up?

USPA has bigger problems than richard.

One Jump Wonder

[jimjumper 25]

Nope, the cover-up went right by numbers and the incident disappeared. The alleged non-incident and non-broken leg occurred in March.

[lyosha 50]

Krip

***How long has it been since the accident and has Rich ever owned up to his fuck-up?

USPA has bigger problems than richard.

... skydiving is about to be made illegal in the USA?

[BowlingBall 0]

jimjumper

Nope, the cover-up went right by numbers and the incident disappeared. The alleged non-incident and non-broken leg occurred in March.

There was an article in one of the recent "Parachutist" magazines, which talked about the disciplinary process. They didn't mention this Winstock incident in particular. But they talked about how the structure and procedures of the organization only allowed disciplinary action to be taken if initiated by the Regional Director, or something like that - the board had no authority or power to do it on their own. So I took it as implied that this incident wasn't pursued because the RD failed to, or was unwilling to, take any action on it. And then the article went on to say how the rules were changed to allow a subset of board members to independently investigate any future incidents, if a RD fails to do so himself.

Anyone else remember reading that?

I kind of had this incident in the back of my mind as I read that, thinking; "So that's why nothing was done!"

[normiss 800]

In this case, the incident was the direct fault of the Regional Director.

[michalm21 2]

normiss

In this case, the incident was the direct fault of the Regional Director.

but he's not going to investigate himself since no accident ever happened... it was the bench that fell onto the spectator. bad stuff happens

[SkyCoi 0]

Care to elaborate on that statement?

[BowlingBall 0]

normiss

In this case, the incident was the direct fault of the Regional Director.

At least we can say that a good organization procedural change came out of it, so that this "Catch 22" can never happen again.

[Krip 2]

SkyCoi

Care to elaborate on that statement?

IMO

The young one's have realized that in spite of the best intentions, of USPA and The group membership program. Due to modern technology if they get grounded at one dz. That just kicks the can down the road and doesn't solve the real problem. A dgit.

If a young one wants to push the envelope, and they get grounded at one dz all they have to do is get in their car and drive to the next dz and they might be back in business. YMMV.

The exception to the YMMV is the DGIT must be a current member of USPA.

Read some the latest incident reports there's a prime example of what can go wrong. With the number of canopies in the air the other jumpers on the load dodged a bullet and may not have known it.











has the potential

One Jump Wonder

[DanG 1]

What would you do to solve this problem?

- Dan G

[normiss 800]

Why do you think that?
I've seen nothing that would make me think that.

[jimjumper 25]

If the past history of the USPA is any indicator, incidents like this will certainly happen again. Trying to write rules for individuals that are in power positions is futile. Electing Directors that want to do the right thing is a much simpler solution. In this case we had a person that was motivated to cover up an incident to prevent embarrassment to himself and his DZ and he took the easy way out, aided and abetted by his fellow directors.

[BowlingBall 0]

normiss

Why do you think that?
I've seen nothing that would make me think that.

This is the article that I referred to earlier, and now I've found it online.
See paragraph 4: Ed Scott, "Gearing Up", August 2014
http://parachutistonline.com/columns/gearing_up/august-2014

[Krip 2]

DanG

What would you do to solve this problem?

I don't know. Try and let everyone know there is a problem that isn't being addressed.

How about You , how would you solve this problem.?

Anyone else have any idea's. A brit mentioned in a not her thread per BPA protocol manifest had a big red rubber stamp to the dgits paperwork notify the next dz down the road.

The dzo and go dz always check for USPA membership how about asking the unknowns to leave their license with manifest. They get banned from the dz stamp it.

The dz down the road will ask for the proof of USPA membership before letting them jump. Scarlet letter A.

I know this is the usa, and we have USPA and they always do a wonderful job, know more than the brits and then there is the legal issues. Who can do what, don't want to sued. All the excuses we have heard in the past.

"We'll look into it and get back with you" "what would you do?" Dan G is that the best you can do? Nice attitude dude.

Does anyone care that these dgits are real people with families and this dumb ass may have experienced a life altering injury that may affect his whole family for a very long time.

One Jump Wonder

[DanG 1]

Quote

I don't know. Try and let everyone know there is a problem that isn't being addressed.

How about You , how would you solve this problem.?

Anyone else have any idea's. A brit mentioned in a not her thread per BPA protocol manifest had a big red rubber stamp to the dgits paperwork notify the next dz down the road.

The dzo and go dz always check for USPA membership how about asking the unknowns to leave their license with manifest. They get banned from the dz stamp it.

The dz down the road will ask for the proof of USPA membership before letting them jump. Scarlet letter A.

I know this is the usa, and we have USPA and they always do a wonderful job, know more than the brits and then there is the legal issues. Who can do what, don't want to sued. All the excuses we have heard in the past.

"We'll look into it and get back with you"Crazy "what would you do?"Crazy Dan G is that the best you can do? Nice attitude dude.

Does anyone care that these dgits are real people with families and this dumb ass may have experienced a life altering injury that may affect his whole family for a very long time.

That's not going to stop any of the incidents that are currently being discussed. Those people weren't banned, they were just turned away with the equipment they showed up with. Are you saying that someone who wants to jump a canopy too small for them should be kicked out of skydiving? How about we focus more on education, and being proactive about remedial training instead of just banning people? Maybe the USPA should have advanced canopy training standards. Oh wait, they do. How about wingsuit and camera training standards? They have that, too. It's up to individual DZs to enforce the recommendations. I don't see how USPA can possibly police that.

So I guess you're right. The only solution is to kick every young dumb kid out of the sport so they can go kill themselves base jumping.

- Dan G

[theonlyski 8]

Krip

The dzo and go dz always check for USPA membership how about asking the unknowns to leave their license with manifest. They get banned from the dz stamp it.

The dz down the road will ask for the proof of USPA membership before letting them jump. Scarlet letter A.

Won't stop anyone. They'll just say they forgot their card and have the DZ look them up by their number...

Or if they've been jumping for a while, they probably have more than one card. I have several with various ratings that show lifetime membership.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[airtwardo 7]

"...that show lifetime membership."

For YOU that's an annual renewal.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 2]

theonlyski

***
The dzo and go dz always check for USPA membership how about asking the unknowns to leave their license with manifest. They get banned from the dz stamp it.

The dz down the road will ask for the proof of USPA membership before letting them jump. Scarlet letter A.

Won't stop anyone. They'll just say they forgot their card and have the DZ look them up by their number...

Or if they've been jumping for a while, they probably have more than one card. I have several with various ratings that show lifetime membership.

There's also the problem in that that would deprive the jumper of basic due process: to have an accusation be decided by a neutral party, after both sides have been heard. Jumpers and DZOs can disagree; and while of course the DZO is the final law at his own DZ, extending that to a jumper's entire career is something else entirely. Allowing a DZO to unilaterally deface a jumper's credentials (as apparently the BPA allows in the UK) basically allows the cop to also be the judge, jury and sentencing judge. I realize that "informal regional bannings" have been part of our sport for the past 40 or 50 years, but doing it formally has some pitfalls to bear in mind. That's why the USPA provides for due process before formal disciplinary action against someone's license can be taken.

(Hope I didn't misspell anything. OK, good to go.)

[rifleman 70]

Quote

7. DISCIPLINE

7.1. A CCI may suspend any parachutist from his/her Club for any breach of the BPA Operations Manual.

7.2. If a parachutist is permanently grounded from a Club. The parachutist’s log book/card and BPA membership card should be endorsed, in red. The BPA must also be informed to prevent the re-issue of a new non-endorsed membership card.

7.3. A CCI who has reason for recommending the temporary or permanent suspension of any parachutist from all parachuting should state the case in writing to the Chairman of the STC. The parachutist concerned will have the right to appeal to the STC/BPA Council.

7.4. The Safety & Technical Officer or Chief Operating Officer may suspend any member from parachuting, or the rating/authorisation/qualification of a member, for a suspected breach of the BPA Operations Manual, until the next STC Meeting. A Panel of inquiry may be formed to investigate further. The member concerned will have the right to appeal at the said STC meeting.

7.5. The STC may suspend any member from parachuting, or the rating/authorisation/qualification of a member, for a suspected breach of the BPA Operations Manual or for any safety reason until the outcome of a report by a formal Tribunal if it is felt necessary.

N.B. Tribunal Proceedings – Rules and Procedures can be found on BPA Form 256.

BPA Operations Manual Section 10 - Safety

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[Andy9o8 2]

Yes, 7.2 is what I was referring to.

[rifleman 70]

As I understand it, the problem is that the Ops manual is not a series of suggestions or recommendations that DZ's can choose to join or ignore but rather a set of rules that have to be followed or the CAA revoke the exemption that allows jumping and screw everyone's life up.

Atheism is a Non-Prophet Organisation

[gowlerk 2,191]

Very British, very nanny state. Guilty until proven innocent. The head bureaucrat at any DZ can suspend you at his discretion. You must appeal to the Star Chamber if you disagree.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[Andy9o8 2]

gowlerk

Very British, very nanny state. Guilty until proven innocent. The head bureaucrat at any DZ can suspend you at his discretion. You must appeal to the Star Chamber if you disagree.

Exactly my point. Under BPA, any Brit DZO could conceivably abuse his position and unilaterally suspend a jumper from the sport immediately, without due process, in reality for any trumped-up "reason", just if he decides he dislikes the jumper. Fuck that.