Ukraine

[kallend 2,106]

13 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi John,

OK, I was going to reply to GeorgiaDon, but this might be better. 

Re:  The UK declared war on Germany 1100 GMT on September 3, 1939, and France a few hours later, followed by Canada, Australia, South Africa, Rhodesia, New Zealand. . . . . . I guess you aren't including them in "the free world".

Other than the UK and 'RN' whoever that is, none of those other countries that 'declared war on Germany' did much of anything.

1 Sep 39)  Invasion of Poland - Wikipedia

22 Jun 41)  Operation Barbarossa - Wikipedia

I think if we are going to discuss this in a rationale manner, we need to be specific about the dates that we are discussing.

There is no question that many nations helped in the defeat of the Third Reich.  However, one IMO needs to be specific about just when.

Most of the events that you list, were IMO not quite effective.  While the UK did lose a lot of military with their Expeditionary Force, they would have been nearly wiped out if not for the British civilian efforts at Dunkirk.  I think that their efforts were honorable, but not much came of it.

Jerry Baumchen

US declares war on Germany Dec 11, 1941.

How long before the US Army went into action against German forces?

How long before the first USAAF bombers raided Germany?

How long before the US Navy sank a German U boat or capital ship?

 

Since you claim the UK, Canada, Australia, French, etc. declarations of war were ineffective  because of no immediate effect, what does that say about the US?

 

[GeorgiaDon 379]

10 minutes ago, kallend said:

US declares war on Germany Dec 11, 1941.

How long before the US Army went into action against German forces?

How long before the first USAAF bombers raided Germany?

How long before the US Navy sank a German U boat or capital ship?

 

Since you claim the UK, Canada, Australia, French, etc. declarations of war were ineffective  because of no immediate effect, what does that say about the US?

 

Operation Torch[edit]

Main article: Operation Torch

 

American troops on board a landing craft going in to land at Oran. November 1942.

The United States entered the war in the west with Operation Torch on 8 November 1942, after their Soviet allies had pushed for a second front against the Germans. General Dwight Eisenhower commanded the assault on North Africa, and Major General George Patton struck at Casablanca.

 

Interesting! If the UK, Canada, Australia, French, etc. and (by Jerry's standards) the USA's declarations of war were ineffective  because of no immediate effect, one has to wonder what happened to the Nazis.  Perhaps the Soviets took care of the problem entirely on their own?

[Phil1111 1,149]

9 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Phil,

PS)  By mid-1940 the bombing efforts of the UK began really taking a toll.  Strategic bombing during World War II - Wikipedia

Thanks for that. When i was younger I think i read every pocketbook on every war and every service I especially sought out ones from the Russian, German and Japanese point of view.

Even though strategic bombing of cities is a wasteful use of combat power. The bombing of Germany and Japan with four engine bombers. Signaled the beginning of the end of the war. With or without nuclear weapons. By the time the nuclear weapons were employed on Japan. Its navy was finished, its merchant marine done and the country was but a shell. Although submarines and airpower worked to accomplish that for Japan.

The Russian forces have wasted the last two weeks shelling Ukrainian cities. I don't know what the Ukrainian forces are up to. But they have had time to regroup, resupply and train new volunteers. Shelling/bombing urban areas to instill "terror" was first employed in modern times by Germany. When they bombed London. It served to unify the English.

[ryoder 1,590]

Ukraine says they bagged another one:

A third Russian general has been killed as the war intensifies, Ukraine claims

Ukraine's military said in a tweet that they killed Russian Maj. Gen. Andrey Kolesnikov, believed to be the commander of the 29th Combined Arms Army.

[JerryBaumchen 1,441]

4 hours ago, GeorgiaDon said:

Operation Torch[edit]

Main article: Operation Torch

 

American troops on board a landing craft going in to land at Oran. November 1942.

The United States entered the war in the west with Operation Torch on 8 November 1942, after their Soviet allies had pushed for a second front against the Germans. General Dwight Eisenhower commanded the assault on North Africa, and Major General George Patton struck at Casablanca.

 

Interesting! If the UK, Canada, Australia, French, etc. and (by Jerry's standards) the USA's declarations of war were ineffective  because of no immediate effect, one has to wonder what happened to the Nazis.  Perhaps the Soviets took care of the problem entirely on their own?

Hi Don & others,

Germany invaded Poland on 1 Sep 39.  8 Nov 42, Operation Torch, was a lot later.

That is why I feel that the declarations of war were meaningless.

The British Expeditionary Force (BEF) was sent to France in 1939.  They ended up nearly decimated; and were only saved by the British civilian actions at Dunkirk.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  When the American troops landed in North Africa (Operation Torch), they did not meet any quick resistance.  They merely landed and came ashore.

[JerryBaumchen 1,441]

44 minutes ago, ryoder said:

Ukraine says they bagged another one:

A third Russian general has been killed as the war intensifies, Ukraine claims

Ukraine's military said in a tweet that they killed Russian Maj. Gen. Andrey Kolesnikov, believed to be the commander of the 29th Combined Arms Army.

Hi Robert,

'I'm looking for some cannon fodder.  Anyone interested?'  Ukraine war: Putin seeks foreign volunteers to fight in Ukraine - BBC News

Jerry Baumchen

[ndege 0]

Putin can at least be happy he has an ex-President, Republican congressmen and Fox news to bolster his narative. 

[ryoder 1,590]

6 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Robert,

'I'm looking for some cannon fodder.  Anyone interested?'  Ukraine war: Putin seeks foreign volunteers to fight in Ukraine - BBC News

Jerry Baumchen

Fuming Putin fires generals over invasion losses, says Ukraine

"While Putin is busy firing Russian generals, the Ukrainians have been hard at work killing them."

LOL!

Maybe Putin will soon be putting out Help-Wanted ads for new generals.

[CygnusX-1 43]

It really is too bad that over the past several years our politicians have become weak and neutered. If only we had the strong leadership in the likes of Donald Rumsfeld and President Cheney, this war would probably be wrapping up. Or at the very least we would have nukes raining down on major US cities like (well) rain. We tried to reduce the population with Covid, but those pesky doctors and scientists came up with a vaccine way to early. It seems our only hope is an outright and open war. Something needs to be done to reduce the population of the planet, don't you think?

If that doesn't happen and Putin just decides to claim victory and leave, should he just get on an aircraft carrier with a banner stating "Mission Accomplished"?

[BIGUN 1,419]

22 minutes ago, ndege said:

Putin can at least be happy he has an ex-President, Republican congressmen and Fox news to bolster his narative. 

Great. Is this your annual post bashing the GOP? See you next year!

[BIGUN 1,419]

5 minutes ago, CygnusX-1 said:

came up with a vaccine way to early.

Way "too" early. The left needs to take less classes in drama and more in English composition. 

[gowlerk 2,250]

10 minutes ago, CygnusX-1 said:

If only we had the strong leadership in the likes of Donald Rumsfeld and President Cheney, this war would probably be wrapping up.

Nevermind

Edited March 11, 2022 by gowlerk

[gowlerk 2,250]

4 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Way "too" early. The left needs to take less classes in drama and more in English composition. 

Huh? Most of the right wing is barely literate.

[BIGUN 1,419]

7 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Most of the right wing is barely literate.

Depends on which chart you look at and who performed the survey, so rather than a long protracted discussion, we'll just agree the left has a better grasp on drama classes.  

[ndege 0]

Just an observation. It was not directed at or against the GOP, only at those who seem to echo Putin's talking points. Next year - well if you are lucky. Personally, I prefer not to waste time debating online, but sometimes I just can't help myself.

[gowlerk 2,250]

2 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Depends on which chart you look at and who performed the survey, so rather than a long protracted discussion, we'll just agree the left has a better grasp on drama classes.  

Maybe. But FOX announcers seem pretty dramatic. The whole right wing media circus focuses on drama. I will give you that blaming every single weather event on CO2 is getting tiresome.

[kallend 2,106]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Don & others,

Germany invaded Poland on 1 Sep 39.  8 Nov 42, Operation Torch, was a lot later.

That is why I feel that the declarations of war were meaningless.

The British Expeditionary Force (BEF) was sent to France in 1939.  They ended up nearly decimated; and were only saved by the British civilian actions at Dunkirk.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Jerry Baumchen

PS)  When the American troops landed in North Africa (Operation Torch), they did not meet any quick resistance.  They merely landed and came ashore.

So you persist in your claim that a declaration of war with no immediate action is meaningless.

So your definition pretty much renders even more meaningless the US declaration of war on Germany in 1941.

[riggerrob 643]

North Crimean Canal.

Has anyone else noticed that the Russian Army acheived their objectives in Southern Ukraine during the first day of this invasion? 

Back during the 2014 invasion, Russia occupied the Crimea but failed to secure water supplies. Since Crimea has few natural sources of ground-water, they depnd upon fresh water pumped from the Deiper River a few hundred kilometers to the North. In late 2014, the Ukrainian gov't filled the North Crimean Canal with blocks of concrete, stopping the flow of fresh water to Crimea. Crimean farmers have suffered serious droughts ever since. Agricultural production dropped by double digits. Moscow tried to relieve pressure by sending millons of rubles worth of farm machinery to Crimea, the cheerfully announced that productivity was returning to pre-war levels.

That reminds me of Soviet-era "maskovka" and collective farming practices.

[jakee 1,563]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

That is why I feel that the declarations of war were meaningless.

The British Expeditionary Force (BEF) was sent to France in 1939.  They ended up nearly decimated; and were only saved by the British civilian actions at Dunkirk.

Yes, we really will have to disagree about your idea that anything short of immediately winning is meaningless. Or maybe you can tell the surviving families of tens of thousands of soldiers lost in that phase of the war that they did nothing beyond a meaningless paper gesture.

 

Come on dude, seriously?

[JerryBaumchen 1,441]

51 minutes ago, kallend said:

So you persist in your claim that a declaration of war with no immediate action is meaningless.

So your definition pretty much renders even more meaningless the US declaration of war on Germany in 1941.

Hi John,

Yes.

IMO a declaration of war without immediate action is a hollow declaration.

I would guess that you disagree.

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,441]

29 minutes ago, jakee said:

Yes, we really will have to disagree about your idea that anything short of immediately winning is meaningless. Or maybe you can tell the surviving families of tens of thousands of soldiers lost in that phase of the war that they did nothing beyond a meaningless paper gesture.

 

Come on dude, seriously?

Hi jakee,

Re:  your idea that anything short of immediately winning is meaningless.

I never said that.

I would prefer that you not try to put words in my mouth.

Jerry Baumchen

 

[jakee 1,563]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

Way "too" early. The left needs to take less classes in drama and more in English composition. 

Funny how “both sides are exactly the same” when it comes to well documented malfeasance like GOP gerrymandering but hey - being over dramatic is totally a left wing specific thing! Lol, be serious.

[JerryBaumchen 1,441]

21 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi John,

Yes.

IMO a declaration of war without immediate action is a hollow declaration.

I would guess that you disagree.

Jerry Baumchen

Hi folks,

As regards 'hollow declaration,' look here:  Russia, the US and Britain also signed this document which promised none of these countries would invade Ukraine and respect its sovereignties and existing borders while also giving them political independence.

See Post #633.

Jerry Baumchen

[GeorgiaDon 379]

40 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi John,

Yes.

IMO a declaration of war without immediate action is a hollow declaration.

I would guess that you disagree.

Jerry Baumchen

Doesn't that set up the following choices for a country?

Door # 1: permanently maintain a sufficient military to instantly respond to any situation.  Judging by WWII (which is what we have been discussing) that means a standing military of no less than 10% of the total population, with all the vehicles, tanks, ships, aircraft etc necessary for them to be able to be instantly deployed into combat.  Alternatively:

Door #2: never ever declare war, no matter the situation.

Don

[GeorgiaDon 379]

23 minutes ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi folks,

As regards 'hollow declaration,' look here:  Russia, the US and Britain also signed this document which promised none of these countries would invade Ukraine and respect its sovereignties and existing borders while also giving them political independence.

See Post #633.

Jerry Baumchen

???  That is completely different from the Allied response to Nazi aggression.  I honestly cannot see any way to compare the two.  The US and Britain have not invaded Ukraine BTW.  Russia has, which proves that their word cannot be trusted on anything.  They also do things like agree to evacuation corridors for civilians, and then bomb those civilians when they try to evacuate, which is a war crime.  Good luck prosecuting anyone though.