Ukraine

[billvon 2,991]

54 minutes ago, riggerrob said:

One of the reasons that victors need so many decades - to write memoirs - is that a fireplace can only burn so many embarrassing documents per hour.

Trump figured he had them outsmarted.  He decided to flush all those documents down the toilet instead!  A brilliant move!  

He then realized his mistake.  In his own words:  "We have a situation where we're looking very strongly at sinks and showers, and other elements of bathrooms . . .people are flushing toilets 10 times, 15 times."  Turns out all that paper actually clogs toilets.  Who knew?

[Phil1111 1,149]

2 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Dear jakee,

Warfare is never as simple or as pretty as portrayed in the history books.

History books are written by the victors.

One of the reasons that victors need so many decades - to write memoirs - is that a fireplace can only burn so many embarrassing documents per hour.

Hah!

Hah!

 

Do you mean it will take a while to burn the math texts in Florida?

Kidding aside. In Russia the history of Stalin was re-written several times.

Vladimir Putin’s Rewriting of History Draws on a Long Tradition of Soviet Myth-Making  March 18, 2022 Smithsonian Magazine. Putin has already drafted a historical treatise of the Great Patriotic Victory over NATO, 2022. Coming to Russian TV s a mini-series soon. Also on PPV.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Phil1111

[gowlerk 2,192]

The reaction to the 1619 project is an example of suppression of history.

[winsor 236]

On 5/3/2022 at 4:25 PM, gowlerk said:

The reaction to the 1619 project is an example of suppression of history.

Nonsense.

Edited May 6, 2022 by winsor
rephrased

[jakee 1,489]

2 hours ago, winsor said:

Nonsense.

Exactly the same level of reasoning you always use, but at least this time you only used one word instead of disguising it with a thousand others.

[wmw999 2,447]

3 hours ago, winsor said:

Nonsense.

Well, according to Herodotus (who wrote what's generally considered to be the first history), it includes a study of cause and effect. Is there value in looking at the past via data that wasn't considered by previous historians? Ask the students during pre-Civil Rights South, when they were commonly taught about the War of Northern Aggression. Ask the students during the Communist era in the Soviet Union. Ask the students in North Korea (I have no idea what they study, but I'm sure it's a pretty single-focus view).

There is always value in looking at history through different lenses, particularly as the study of history reveals power structures that might have colored what was recorded. That calls into doubt the completeness of the record.

Even if you disagree with the premise, even if you think that slavery is a normal part of human social evolution, even if you think that the US was really founded by the Pilgrims, and that the stage wasn't set by all the Spaniards and others who came earlier, spreading horses and disease among other things, there's value in studying all that other stuff.

Wendy P.

[Phil1111 1,149]

1 hour ago, jakee said:

Exactly the same level of reasoning you always use, but at least this time you only used one word instead of disguising it with a thousand others.

Did you expect anything different given what you know about his "wokeism" beliefs/attitudes?

[Bigfalls 111]

I just watched this 25 minute interview with a captured Russian soldier.  It was really interesting.

 

[billvon 2,991]

2 hours ago, wmw999 said:

Ask the students during pre-Civil Rights South, when they were commonly taught about the War of Northern Aggression.

An excellent example.  By reframing the Civil War as a "war of northen aggression" having nothing to do with slavery, whites in the south could avoid any residual feelings of shame associated with the position they took on slavery.  They could instead take pride in their ancestors who stood up to an evil north, rather than trying to reconcile their heritage of slavery with a more modern view of civil rights.

We are seeing the same thing happen today with the attempted cancellation of both CRT and the 1619 project.  These studies of history make many white people feel bad, because it reminds them that a significant part of this country came from the labor of slaves.  This make them feel - not bad, exactly, but like they cannot be as proud of their history as they otherwise could be.  "Make America Great Again" doesn't work if those halcyon days included slavery (or enforced segregation, or redlining, or any of the other structural racisms that the early and mid US incorporated.)

So they try to ban it.  They realize that banning history is something of a bad look, so they dress up the ban in flowery language and mix in a few "won't someone please think of the children" memes.   We've seen these a lot lately - "why are teachers teaching our children to hate themselves?"  CRT teaches kids "to be ashamed that they are white."  One theoretically real child tearfully asked her far-right mother "Why am I hated so much?" - and then supposedly needed therapy to overcome all the damage that CRT did.  (How fortunate that that child did it just in time for Marsha Blackburn's political campaign.)

Others spend thousands of words trying to define CRT to mean something other than CRT.  It's an "unremitting attack on Western institutions."  It teaches that "America is systemically racist and must be dismantled."  It was created by Karl Marx to destroy democracy.  It is a "monstrous evil" that gives black people "the whip handle" over white people.  (That last was from Pat Robertson; what a fascinating metaphor to use when one is advocating ignoring what slavery did to the country.)

Underlying all this blather is a simple belief common amongst the right - that education can and should be curtailed because it makes some people feel uncomfortable or threatened.  We have seen several examples right here on this forum.

George Orwell once said that "he who controls the past controls the future."  Conservatives are trying to take control of the past and alter it to something that works better for them.  The question is - will we let them?

[Phil1111 1,149]

47 minutes ago, billvon said:

An excellent example.  By reframing the Civil War as a "war of northen aggression" having nothing to do with slavery, whites in the south could avoid any residual feelings of shame associated with the position they took on slavery.  ...

George Orwell once said that "he who controls the past controls the future."  Conservatives are trying to take control of the past and alter it to something that works better for them.  The question is - will we let them?

Like everything it comes down to money. The anti-wokers, white nationalists, GOP nationalists don't want to pay compensation for slavery, for land stolen from native Indians, Blacks, etc.

While in Australia to establish $280 million reparations fund for ‘Stolen Generation’

While in Canada: "The Liberal government is preparing to spend $40 billion to compensate First Nations children harmed by Ottawa’s underfunding of child and family services on reserve, as well as on reforming the current system."

In the US there is no discussion of compensation. Its branded as "wokeism". Even though $1.5 billion was paid to interned Japanese Americans.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Phil1111

[wmw999 2,447]

1 hour ago, The Hundredth Monkey said:

Still standing with Ukraine?

I didn't think Neo Nazis were considered cool these days.

 

Just so you know, as apparently you're either an actual jumper (you filled in some profile), or a better than average spammer, trolling is against the forum rules.

Wendy P.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

6 hours ago, The Hundredth Monkey said:

Still standing with Ukraine?

Yes I am.

Are you standing with Putin?

[billvon 2,991]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

Are you standing with Putin?

Well from his other posts he is a Trump supporter - and there's not much daylight between Trump and Putin these days.

[jakee 1,489]

53 minutes ago, The Hundredth Monkey said:

That's a loaded question but hell yeah.

You stand with a totalitarian dictator against a functioning democracy?

Quote

Zelensky is a degenerate Moron, he is an actor and nothing less.

Right, he is nothing less than an actor. In fact, he's a hell of a lot more.

Quote

T

As trolls go, that's not even a good joke. Still, at least you've made it easy to see who the traitors are in this conversation. A new cold war is coming and you've chosen to side with the enemy.

Edited May 11, 2022 by jakee

[olofscience 480]

1 hour ago, The Hundredth Monkey said:

The people supporting Ukraine are clearly inept in geopolitics.

As inept as the Russian army was in trying to take Kyiv?

[Phil1111 1,149]

The Putin troll farms are active again. Using outdated software from 2010. But they are more advanced than the security training of Russian generals.

They must have filled the last position on Truth social.

[Phil1111 1,149]

2 hours ago, olofscience said:

As inept as the Russian army was in trying to take Kyiv?

When your generals are all lying in zinc coffins. Its hard for draftees from the Urals with a grade eight education to decide what to do.

Even though Putin has lost his super yacht.

 

He still has his Black Sea estate...er mold palace   Mold and rot. Just like Russia. So its conscripts might as well die for it.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Phil1111

[gowlerk 2,192]

1 hour ago, Phil1111 said:

The Putin troll farms are active again.

The return of royreader.

[billvon 2,991]

5 hours ago, The Hundredth Monkey said:

Zelensky is a degenerate Moron, he is an actor and nothing less.

Exactly.  Here in the US, no one would be stupid enough to elect a reality-TV show actor as president.

[Phil1111 1,149]

11 minutes ago, billvon said:

Exactly.  Here in the US, no one would be stupid enough to elect a reality-TV show actor as president.

Or a sportscaster turned actor who married an actress.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Phil1111

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

5 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

When your generals are all lying in zinc coffins. Its hard for draftees from the Urals with a grade eight education to decide what to do.

Even though Putin has lost his super yacht.

 

He still has his Black Sea estate...er mold palace   Mold and rot. Just like Russia. So its conscripts might as well die for it.

Hi Phil,

Re:  Mold and rot. Just like Russia.

I think, more than we realize.  I was reading an AP article in this morning's newspaper that said Russia was running out of modern missiles & would soon need to use their missiles that are over 20 yrs old.  IMO so much for the 'all-powerful Russian military.'

Jerry Baumchen

[DougH 270]

4 hours ago, billvon said:

Exactly.  Here in the US, no one would be stupid enough to elect a reality-TV show actor as president.

That isn't cool Bill, you are selling him short on the resume. You forgot racist, rapist, con man, and failed business man.

[Phil1111 1,149]

3 hours ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Phil,

Re:  Mold and rot. Just like Russia.

I think, more than we realize.  I was reading an AP article in this morning's newspaper that said Russia was running out of modern missiles & would soon need to use their missiles that are over 20 yrs old.  IMO so much for the 'all-powerful Russian military.'

Jerry Baumchen

I read  a similar article. They have pretty much run out of smart bombs. So they are losing A/C dropping unguided bombs. They are running short of cruise missiles and a sizeable percentage miss or fail.

[mistercwood 287]

8 hours ago, gowlerk said:

The return of royreader.

If only it could have been the return of ConcreteReboundHammer... 

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

14 hours ago, olofscience said:

As inept as the Russian army was in trying to take Kyiv?

Or maybe as the sailors on the Moskva.

It's been a very interesting dynamic as the war has progressed.

First off, US intel was spot on. They knew Putin was going to invade. They knew when. They knew Putin planned on a false flag attack so he could claim Ukraine started it.
It's pretty clear that Russian comms have been compromised. And the US told him.

As the war kicked off, Putin threatened anyone who 'interfered'. So actual aid publicly given to Ukraine was somewhat limited.
As the war ground on, and it became clear how inept the Russian army is, the aid increased. Both in volume and in 'usefulness'. 
And in how open the West was in providing it. 
Biden gave a speech last week at the Lockheed Martin factory that makes the Javelin anti-tank missile. He said the US had given Ukraine 5500 of them, and plans on giving them more. As a side note, the newest, most expensive, 'bestest' Russian tank, the T-90 fell victim to a Javelin. 
https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-most-advanced-tank-in-service-destroyed-after-days-reports-2022-5

So much for 'not interfering'.

 

A more interesting aspect is the intelligence that the US is apparently providing the Ukrainians. 
The Russians weren't able to achieve air superiority. That may have been due to US AWACS flying in the area. They were said to be 'monitoring' the skies, which is true, but it now appears they were potentially directing the Ukrainian planes as well.

The Ukrainians seem to have shot down 2 Il-76s. Both full of paratroopers. We all know the chances of getting out of a plane falling out of the sky, even with a rig on. Those 2 planes may well represent over 200 dead Russians. Again, reports are that US intel helped. 

There are also reports that US intel helped Ukraine locate the Moskva. That is, the US located it, told the Ukrainians where it was, and they sank it.

There have also been reports that some of the dead Russian generals were pinpointed by the US before they were killed by Ukrainian snipers. There have been strong denials about this, but they have been hedged by comments like 'we told the Ukrainians lots of stuff, what they do with that info is on them', and that the Ukrainians have their own intel sources locally.
Since the 'dead general' story broke, there's been a fair amount of backpedaling, with even Biden saying that these leaks need to stop.

I'd love to know how much the US is actually giving Ukraine. It's pretty obvious that they are getting very valuable info. 
I saw a story that they are being given basically 'real time' intel when the Russians target them. As in, they are told where the Russians are going to target, the Ukrainians move whatever/whoever is there and the missiles & shells fall shortly after they bug out. 
That sort of info is what wins or loses wars.

It's a big game of 'turn up the heat' on Putin, yet nothing has been done that merits retaliation. 
And the idea that Russia could actually do much of anything, short of nuclear annihilation, has become patently ludicrous. Not that Putin wouldn't do that if pressed hard enough, but it's nowhere near that.
 

2 hours ago, mistercwood said:

If only it could have been the return of ConcreteReboundHammer... 

Concrete Rebound Hammer can return anytime anyone wishes to bump the thread.

It never really left us (thank god).